Relationship Dynamics: Creating Secure, Connected Partnerships by Breaking Unhealthy Patterns

Andrea McTague: Welcome back to The Shift Show. I'm your host, Andrea McTague. I'm a registered psychologist with ShiftGrit, Psychology and Therapy. With Valentine's Day fast approaching, we're leaning into something many of us are thinking about right now, romantic relationships. Not the highlighted real version, but the real ones. The dynamics beneath the surface that shape how we connect, communicate and stay emotionally safe with one another. This episode is titled Relationship Dynamics. creating healthy, secure and connected partnerships and avoiding the ones that aren't so much, or reshaping them. Today we're exploring the patterns that show up in romantic relationships, how attachment, communication styles, boundaries and past experiences influence the way we love, argue, withdraw or pursue connection. We'll talk about why certain dynamics repeat, how unhealthy patterns can quietly take hold and what it actually looks like to build relationships rooted in safety, respect and emotional attunement. I'm joined by an incredible guest today who brings some deeply complimentary perspectives to this conversation and a ton of work in the area of couples, communications, relationships, and families. It's Geneviève Malina. Welcome, Jen. She's a registered social worker with ShiftGrit, and she specializes in relationship dynamics and the emotional patterns that shape how we show up in partnership. She brings a trauma-informed, compassionate lens to understanding attachment, nervous system responses and the relational habits that can either strengthen or strain romantic partnerships. So Jen, welcome to the show. Let's get at it.

Genevieve Malena: Thanks so much. So happy to be here.

Andrea McTague: I like it, I like it. So you have a ton of, maybe tell us a little bit about yourself first. You have a ton of experience working in this arena. So tell us how you got into that and like where your passion became a couple-centric focused. And then we'll get into a little bit about what you're seeing a lot in your practice these days.

Genevieve Malena: Awesome. So been around the block a little bit, kind of 20 plus years in the industry, not so much individual therapy, but lots of nonprofit work with very complex families. Lots of families that are, we're struggling to maintain safety for their children, for each other. Lots of work with integrating safety into family relationships and romantic relationships in order to. provides safety for the unit as a whole. And then more recently, getting into individual couple therapy and more so people that are looking to strengthen their relationships, create more health and a little bit less of a vulnerable sector, which has helped me to help these families that are looking to leverage their health and safety within their relationships.

Andrea McTague: Nice, nice. So come loaded with a whole bunch of different things. What are you seeing most often? I know you've got a good amount of, you do individual work, also couples work, but I would say also in our practices at Shivgup, we're also working on relationships within the individual counseling sphere as well. So what are you seeing as people bringing up, like what are the things that are messing with people or what do you see for these relationships? What is it looking like?

Genevieve Malena: What I tend to see the most is our shit showing up within our relationships and having a hard time looking at our own stuff because we're just such a blame and shame society sometimes. And I think a lot of times what I'm seeing is people coming in wanting me to fix their partner for them or wanting me to, you know, fix the things that they do that cause them harm. And it's one of my caveats when I first start to see couples is I'm not here to fix your partner. I'm not here to fix your relationship. I'm here to help you look at your own stuff so that it's not showing up within your relationship and harming, which it will show up, but we need to identify those things.

Andrea McTague: 100%. I was just talking to somebody about that the other day where it's like, okay, I need to look at like my part, my ownership, because that's the part that you have that you can control. So when somebody comes in and they're like, okay, my they're doing this, this and this, and I hate this, this and this about them and blah, blah, blah. How do you turn it around? Like, what are you kind of moving them to refocus on?

Genevieve Malena: Well, one of the first things I want to look at is what is coming up for that person when the other person is doing the thing. So one of my questions is always going to be what is that saying to you about you? What are you saying to yourself about yourself when when that guy or that girl isn't putting their laundry in the basket like they're supposed to and you walk in and you're like, what the fuck you I'm not considering I'm not you're not considering me. Well, what does that say about you? What does that say about the belief that you have about yourself that, you know, I don't matter. I'm insignificant. Nothing I do matters. Right. And so if we're looking at that, then we can target that without Buddy having to put his shit in the laundry. Right.

Andrea McTague: Yeah, you just remove the external thing as a trigger essentially. And we talk a lot about limiting beliefs and we'll talk about them a little bit more. Let's go backwards a little bit into what, okay, so we use the word like relationship dynamics, the phrase relationship dynamics a lot. What are we actually referring to when we talk about like a dynamic in a relationship? Like what is that?

Genevieve Malena: Bye! I think it's the things that we struggle with as far as like internal locus showing up within that relationship. So I don't know if you've seen that, I reference this a lot actually, the sculpture from Burning Man, where you've got the two chicken wire adults and they're sitting back to back, cross-legged. And then you've got the two wooden babies inside facing each other through the backs of the adults.

Andrea McTague: Okay, yeah.

Genevieve Malena: And I think a lot of the time when we're talking about relationship dynamics, we're talking about what filters we're moving through, what filters the other person is moving through and how is that meshing or not, right? I think somebody out there said once, and I love this phrase is we marry our unfinished business. But we're bringing our business to our relationships.

Andrea McTague: Yes, I've heard things like that.

Genevieve Malena: And I think it can be a really, really beautiful thing when people are endeavored in wanting to leverage and optimize themselves within relationship, because then we move together. But if we've got one person that wants to move, is doing the work, is moving up, is leveraging the other person, unless they try and meet them, the only thing they can do is try and bring that person down so that we can keep each other. I kind of think of it like a balloon, like a helium balloon. If you've got one person doing the work and they're looking at their shadows, they're looking at their shit, then the only thing that other person can do if they don't decide to do the same thing is grab that string and pull them back down. then go ahead.

Andrea McTague: Well, we talk about this a lot about like why dynamics are so sticky, because I mean, I think most people have been had the experience of being in a relationship and it's like the same different version, same fight on a loop. And that dynamic is kind of just like floating and floating. And then that becomes like the dynamic in the relationship, right? Like it's essentially another word for like the pattern in the relationship. And I think that if we change, right, like if you change,

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: I always tell my clients like one of two things is gonna happen. Either you change the way you're behaving, you're reacting, your emotional landscape, even the energy that you bring into that room. And then people will either move up and meet you there because they have to do something different, because you're doing something different, they gotta react differently. So sometimes they come up and it changes the partner and it changes and strengthens the relationship. And then other times I think you've got that helium balloon pulling down scenario where that person for whatever reason,

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: not necessarily anything malicious, sometimes it is, where they just, can't, they're not there, it's not happening. And then you have somebody going, okay, maybe this isn't a fit, right? Which we get to sometimes. So you had mentioned something about the unfinished business that we have, the stuff from our previous, like from our growing up and all of that, our previous experiences end up being a component of why people repeat certain similar relationship patterns. Because this is also something we see across

Genevieve Malena: just not very fit. Yep. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: different relationships sometimes happening. Yeah, can you talk about a little, like, what is that? Like, what are those things? And then why do they come into the room? And we see it a lot in romantic relationships. It might not show up anywhere else in their life, but it's gonna blow up in romantic relationships. Why does that happen?

Genevieve Malena: Hmm. Yeah, not just romantic. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think there's a number of complicating factors there. First of all, sex, right? We're releasing different hormones when we're when we're engaged in an intimate physical relationship, right? You know, I've got a lot of people come to see me individually who talk about their romantic relationships as the thing that causes them so much harm and strife and and and upheaval. And then their friendships are fine. Right. And or Or, you know, women and or men treat women and or men much differently than they treat their same sex relationships. Right. There's there's a there's a number of complicating factors in their, you know, societal pressures, understanding of what it's supposed to look like. You know, we have so many shoulds in our life. And I think that's part of what you're talking about, like that we're bringing those shoulds that we've learned, you know, in childhood from our caregivers, from our parents, from our siblings, from our extended family and we bring those pile of shoulds into a relationship and it's like what we call needs identifying picture. What does a good relationship look like to you? And so then we've got that vision and then we have the other person's vision which we may not have shared with one another because the fascinating thing about the human experience is that we all see the world differently. Every single one of us. We can have like-minded people and we can adopt perspective, but none of us are going to see the world the same, which is really mind-blowing when you think about it. understanding, so many. And so I think a lot of time, and then the paradox to that is that we believe people see the world the same way we do. And so, yeah.

Andrea McTague: Yes, a lot of perspectives. that's a fun, fun little game, right? And then you're like, okay, also try to find some alignment in that. Right? And so we talk about, like our pattern theory a lot. And I see often when I'm working with individuals, work couples, whatever, where there's a pattern that they have. So you mentioned the laundry basket kind of example, and it being interpreted through this lens of like,

Genevieve Malena: Right. But that's, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: I don't matter, I'm insignificant, this means that I'm nothing. So it's like attributing a deeper, bigger, amplified meaning to whatever the instance is. It's like maybe they were just thinking about the sunset.

Genevieve Malena: Right? Which is usually a minuscule thing, right? And not that, you know, constant missing of the laundry basket is minuscule, but really in the grand scheme of things, it's not that big of a deal. But it brings this big feeling up for us. Right? Right.

Andrea McTague: or it wasn't done with that intention. Like it was done with a different sort of thing. And not like we're saying like everybody should just do whatever they want and not consider their partner because that's the other piece of that, right? Sometimes it is. But I think one of the ways we go in is we look at identifying those recurring patterns and how they clash. Because sometimes they don't clash. Sometimes they're complimentary, right? I always think of the example, I've got two friends, they're married to each other. And one of them has to be in control of everything all the time, like every single decision, which sounds

Genevieve Malena: Great. Totally agree.

Andrea McTague: in individual therapy land would be like, maybe a little rigid. But in their relationship, the other one doesn't want anything to do with decision making, complete application, just be like, yeah, you pick the thing, I trust you, let's go with that. So it creates this massive amount of stability. But sometimes we see the opposite. And if we think about the Mr. Control person with another control person, then you're just going to have, need to control that dysfunctional need. And then another person with that same dysfunctional need. And it's just going to clash and clash and create a ton of destabilization in that relationship, right?

Genevieve Malena: Mm hmm. Well, and if we're looking at those things in a regulated versus dysregulated state, it changes everything, too. So if you've got a partner that struggles with I am powerless and you have a controlling, maybe rigid partner when they're dysregulated and they're maybe controlling or organized or a leader in a regulated state, which actually behooves the other person. But if they're coming from a situation or experience, maybe it's work, maybe it's an interaction with somebody else and they're coming home and they're feeling really powerless. And then you've got a bossy bitch wife who is like, do this, do that, do the other thing where that might not be triggering on one day. It might be triggering on another day, right? Because it might have shown up in another part of their life. And then we get to where

Andrea McTague: Yeah.

Genevieve Malena: One of the things I notice a lot in relationship is blame and shame of the other partner for how we're feeling. When really those feelings were already there. They were already there, but they get triggered and by our intimate partners the most because we're with each other so much, right?

Andrea McTague: 100 % Well, I think we're not explaining an option too. Like we don't explain the context of this is what it means to me. Because if you go straight into like the blame shame scenario, you're like, you did this, you did that, you blah, blah, you need to change this. But if you explain the context of like, when this happens, this is how I feel because whatever, then you can kind of start to get a little bit of movement, not from every partner too, but like from that midline where there is a change.

Genevieve Malena: Yeah. From the partners that are willing to endeavor with you, but then, you know, just even listening to you do that. How much work is that? We don't want to work. This is what we don't work hard in our relationship. Sometimes we just go to the blame and shame because it's easier to just lose our shit, call them a piece of crap, walk out of the room and and basically give away all of our power in those moments because we're we're being impulsive. Right.

Andrea McTague: Yes. Okay. was also more ego protective. Like if we can walk around and we're like, I'm right, she did this to me, blah, blah, blah, that makes her terrible, I'm superior. And that's where we see like certain other patterns, like I'm less than, I need to be more and power things.

Genevieve Malena: Right. Yes. Yes, exactly. Right, because... Yes, yes. And I think that's that's particularly indicative in romantic relationships because there is this one upmanship sometimes where if you're if you're right, then I'm wrong, which isn't the case because multiple truths, there can be lots of things that are true at once. But when we get into this competitiveness right around, I'm only significant if you're not ready.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. What's a real deal breaker, like with the competitiveness within relationships, is it signals like a lack of alignment, right? Like if we're on the same sports team or whatever, I can't be competing with you, I gotta be competing with the other team. And I was like, if you're in a healthy relationship, you're not competing internally, you're competing with the world or you're doing something with the world, right? Like same sort of team. But I don't think that people try to get into those. I do think that certain patterns from childhood tend to lend themselves to creating

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. out.

Andrea McTague: that, but they can get stuck in that like competitive loop. So when you see a couple and they are in that like tit for tat one-upmanship, like that competitive loop, or you did this, well you did that, blah blah blah blah kind of thing, how do you start to get them contemplating that so that they can break that loop?

Genevieve Malena: Bye. Mm Well, I tell them first and foremost, you can bicker on your own time. We're not here to bicker. That's not I'm not doing you a service if I just let you play out your old patterns. We're going to get underneath and we're going to understand now what is the drive of you needing to be understood in this moment in this tip for tat? Why does why does your tat need to be understood? What is that going to do for you? And I think Also, we often look to the person that has hurt us to resolve the issue. When really it's an internal first. It's an internal what's happening first. And you talked about ego protectiveness. And I really think when we talk about marrying our unfinished business, that we invite people into our lives that are gonna solidify those limiting beliefs for us. Because our ego wants to be right. Our ego wants to be right, wants to be correct.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Genevieve Malena: even when those limiting beliefs are getting in our way and are detrimental to us and are keeping us stuck. But we our ego is like, nope, that's correct. You are insignificant. You don't matter. And here's the evidence. Socks all over the floor. Dirty bathroom when you asked it to be clean. Right.

Andrea McTague: Yeah, 100%. And I think because those things, and just for context, like we believe those limiting beliefs originate in non-nurturing elements from childhood. So like stuff that was less than perfect. Maybe you a really like domineering mother, maybe you had a really absent dad, maybe you had like a lot of sibling competition. So you're like, this is just like what close relationships are. Somebody's got to win at them or whatever. So kind of growing up in that competitive. zero-sum mindset versus like abundance sort of thing. And then we just bring that sort of understanding without a lack of, I think this is one of the benefits of therapy usually, is that it gives you more awareness that that way of like, what is your way of thinking? Like what is your belief structure? And then you can see what you're bringing into the thing, right? So what do you feel like generally, because there's some themes across it.

Genevieve Malena: Absolutely.

Andrea McTague: So like some common triggers that set these patterns in motion for people. And what do you, we obviously talked about like the chores one, right? Like when you live with somebody and then they don't do the thing or they don't do the thing the way you want it, that would be a trigger that we see as like a little hint at what this underlying dynamic is. What are some of those other hints that you're seeing like coming up for people?

Genevieve Malena: I tend to really look for power differential. So how big is the gap? Because we're gonna switch back and forth sometimes. In a healthy relationship, we're gonna switch back and forth of who's in control here or who's giving 80, who's giving 20 today, because we have to take turns, right? We're not always at 100 every day, none of us are. So I look at how big is the gap? How much work do we need to do? to close that gap so that we have more understanding of where the other person is coming from. Also, compassion, empathy, that real want or desire to understand where the other person is coming from. So the way to do that is we have to reduce defensiveness. the defensiveness creates that gap. And if we're constantly defending ourselves when our partners are bringing us things,

Andrea McTague: Huh?

Genevieve Malena: then we're just going to be stuck in that loop that you're talking about, right?

Andrea McTague: Yeah, or alternatively, when you bring something to your partner and they're defensive and then you feel like you're like, okay, well, I have to like prove why I feel this or prove why my emotional experience is valid. That gets into a different thing because it equates to like, essentially over time, like an erosion of vulnerability because then you eventually like, well, I'm not going to tell you how I feel anymore because it just turns into the thing.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Because I'm going to get this reaction every time. And I think that's one of the things that we need to look at is practicing somebody bringing something to the other person and hopefully getting a different response. so training really responses to be different so that people aren't afraid to bring things to each other because then we stop bringing stuff to one another. We start guessing all the time about what's going on. Then we're just making up stories and typically those stories are not true. And then we're not checking in with one another. And then it's this huge thing that's happened where it wasn't even valid or real in the first place, right? And so we have to...

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Well, and then that's where you get that they're going in like different directions, such as like move apart. And over time that apart can be quite big. And then you see like there's this giant chasm. I do say one thing to people when we're working in the realm of relationships. like, look, you've got like voting shares. You have 50 % shares. So you can change quite a bit in it. And then you just go ahead and change it and then see what happens. See if the other person's going to meet you there. And then understand if you've been doing the work first, like you're, they give us some time to catch up, but.

Genevieve Malena: rate. Exactly. Exactly.

Andrea McTague: On the other hand, if you've done this stuff and they're just not catching up and they're in their experience where they are, maybe that relationship is not going to create the environment that you need it to create to be healthy.

Genevieve Malena: Absolutely. And we're talking, what we're talking about is the difference between person and behavior, right? And so we, all feelings are welcome. All of the feelings are welcome. The behavior might not be because we're not going, I'm not telling people, know, you have to accept this. You have to let it happen. It's just going to be the way it is. No, we can put boundaries in place around behavior. We can say, if you're going to continue to do this thing,

Andrea McTague: Yes.

Genevieve Malena: I am going to do this thing to remove myself from that. But it's not about you being a bad person. It's about you engaging in this behavior and that it's creating an uncomfortableness for me. And so when we look at anger, okay, so anger is another big thing that comes with couples going to therapy. And we're looking at the value of anger. And a lot of times what I'll tell people is anger is our friend and they don't expect to hear that. because what people do with anger can be very damaging, right? But our anger is a signal that something isn't right. So what is that thing? What is not right? And then what's the thought that comes with it? So checking in with that. And then what are we doing with it? Because what we do with the anger is what gets us in trouble, not having the anger.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. 100%. And I think that that's one of those things where it's like, okay, well, are we going to engage in it? And I talk a lot when we get into kind of conversations about communication is like, you're getting stuck in the micro, like, is the argument about the laundry basket? Or if it's been a repeated argument kind of thing where it's like this, that, tit for tat, is like, at some point, the dialogue or the behavior changes have to be around like the macro level. It's like, okay, well, you're saying that I'm not

Genevieve Malena: Agreed.

Andrea McTague: being considerate of you and whatever. So like, how can I do some experiments where I'm demonstrating being considerate or even attempting to, because they might not know how to be considerate in that partner's mind or whatever and start changing it from there, but taking it out of that like little minutiae focus, because I think that you can get really trapped in that.

Genevieve Malena: You're hurting me. get stuck in the details. And one of the things I say again, all the time is the fights never about what the fights about. Always underneath. It's always underneath. It's never about the dishes. It's never about the way that you're treating the kids. It's never about whether you leave your shoes on and come in. Right. It's not about those things. It's about the underlying thing.

Andrea McTague: No, no, 100. No, because when I think the evidence of that is if you're in a relationship, and it can be like any type of relationship, best friendship, whatever, whatever. If you have high alignment and you have an environment where there can be vulnerability and that there is emotional and other acceptance of just who you are, you can disagree quite freely on stuff. And you disagree on less generally, but you're allowed to disagree on things. You're allowed to have differences of opinions and the other person's not taking it.

Genevieve Malena: Okay. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: as like a personal affront to them, right? So it's a lot more efficient in relationships. I think that's probably a component of a healthy relationship. It's like, if you think something different than me, I'm like, well, wait a minute, tell me about that, like why?

Genevieve Malena: So it's. Well, it's curiosity, right? We're getting into curiosity then. And we're not taking exactly what you said, the belief that they see things differently as a personal affront, right? And so where are we? What limiting belief is showing up for us then when we feel like we can't have differing opinions, right? Or that means that we're bad or wrong, right? Like there's been times through my own life where I get within relationship that shame flush, right? If somebody disagrees with me is something that I really am like very passionate about with my schema and they go against me. You know, I can feel it from my toes all the way up to my head. Just flush, right? Like, I'm, I, know, if you don't agree with me, then I'm wrong or bad. That's, I'm okay. Right. Exactly.

Andrea McTague: Yeah, you're just like... Yeah, or you don't like me or you're going to reject me or whatnot. Well, I always say like love, think is two things. I think it's knowledge and acceptance. And, you know, we have to do that. The curiosity has to be there to like seek the knowledge. And I think when we get into things where we assume that like you did this or you think this or you are like this or you're like this, this is your intention.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm, agreed.

Andrea McTague: And what you say, I see it often like a common fight in couples, I think is like, she takes so long to get ready. She doesn't care about time. And you get another one that's like super on time. So it means that she's not considerate or she doesn't care, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, it just might be that her winged eyeliner wasn't working that day. You know, she was late because of that. But I think it's that curiosity of the seeking of the like, why? Because then you can get into like true problem solving. You're like, okay, well.

Genevieve Malena: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: If you're going to have a potential winged eyeliner disaster before we go to the concert, maybe we're going to just allocate you 20 more minutes to get ready in case there's a winged eyeliner disaster. So then maybe because I'm the time one, I'll be in charge of the time frame and we'll give you this like time frame.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We can put some integrations in place, but I think before we do that, we have to understand what's happening. And then if you take this scenario, this is another thing that often happens that I see the impounded hurt around that. Maybe she's taking that extra time because she wants to look good on his arm for this event. Right. And so then when you're being scolded, for taking so much time or feeling like you're being scolded, then it's a double whammy. Because it's like, you know what? I was just trying to show up as my best self for you. And now that's not even important to you, right?

Andrea McTague: So eventually you'll get this kind of like, well, to hell with that then. And then this kind of like abdication avoidance. Exactly.

Genevieve Malena: Right. Fuck you. I'm not even gonna try now. Why am I even trying to show up for you? You don't give a fuck anyway. Right?

Andrea McTague: 100 % because I think it's like if consideration is kind of the the behavioral language of love, that's a big thing, right? It's like you have to consider continue to want to be considerate of your partner and your partner is going to be considerate of you. Even if that consideration makes zero sense to you, you're like, I don't know why I would like her without the winged eyeliner. I don't even really like I don't know why it's big thing, but it's not about you justifying her.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Yeah, to you at the time. What's the drive?

Andrea McTague: that she's doing is about just like understanding the intent behind it.

Genevieve Malena: Exactly. And I, this is one thing I say to couples all the time. And when I used to teach in big groups, I would, when we did, you know, talking about communication and separation, one of the major things I would say to people is if you leave here with nothing else today, I want you to leave here with understanding what validation means. And validation does not need, we don't need to agree with why the person feels that way. We don't need to agree with that. We don't need to agree with that at all. but we do need to agree with the feeling. We have to agree with the feeling. Otherwise we're not validating. So you don't have to agree that she's having a meltdown and now has to do both eyes again because she's bawling. You don't have to agree that she's melting down over winged eyeliner. You don't have to agree with that, but you have to agree with what's happening right now, right? I can see something's happening right now for you.

Andrea McTague: Yeah. Yeah, and I think we got into major danger when a relationship gets to the point where the other person is experiencing a negative emotion and it is dismissed or just or invalidated. Like you shouldn't be having that mountain. Like that's a stupid thing. Yeah, like get over it. We have to get out of here and exactly. you go.

Genevieve Malena: Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. Why are you crying? Like what, what, what, what over it we have to go. Right. Exactly. And that takes longer for the person to get over it. Yes.

Andrea McTague: Yes, it's inefficient, but it also gives them the message that this is not a safe relationship. Your feelings do not matter at that point. And that's when we get into actual. I think we're talking about the patterns creating these triggers in us and these sensitivities towards this reaction or that reaction, which can be compiled and they can really affect our lens. But then there is the other side of it where

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: The thing is actually happening. Like somebody is actually invalidating your emotional experience or who you are or what's important to you or whatever. How do you kind of differentiate, because those things get kind of mushed together, how do you differentiate? And maybe there is a little blurry part where it is both. What does that look like?

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, that's that's exactly that minutia that you're talking about. Right. And so one of the ways we work with that is we reduce that defensiveness and we also look at what what is the information, what filter is your information going through? Right. If we are invalidating our partner, it's because we're feeling some kind of way. And so things like, well, I'm just an ogre then I'm just the bad guy then. I'm just the one that's in the wrong then, right? No, that's defensive. This isn't about you actually. And so putting those feelings to the side, just for a minute, just for a minute, or those thoughts, more so not feelings, the thoughts about ourselves, the thoughts about what's coming up for us in that moment, and really being genuinely curious as to what's going on for the other person can be very difficult in relationship. because our filters show up and we are not even aware of them. We're not even aware that they're there. So identifying those filters, identify, and when I'm saying filters, I'm saying limiting beliefs about us, right? And being able to just put them aside just for a minute. So I practice that in session and it can be really hard for people to actually get in the ditch of feeling with the other person, right? Yeah, yeah.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And they're like, oh, like, just wanted to put this aside and get on with things, which of course never is stockpile stuff. It's like 30 dishes in a sink. It's like, it's easier if you clean the first dish. Otherwise you got a whole bunch of them, which is how we got into, think these unresolved dynamics that continue to like flip and flip and flip. Now, let's talk a little bit about how those, how do past relationships and like everyone comes to their current relationship with some stuff, whether it's from like childhood or

Genevieve Malena: Yes. Hahaha! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: a school experience or past relationships, how do they shape our behaviors and those relationship dynamics? How do they wiggle in? Why do we sometimes see somebody who's had five versions of the same type of relationship or picked five of the same type of partner when it didn't work with that type of partner in the first place? What's going on there?

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, they haven't looked at their shit, right? They haven't looked at the stuff that's going on for them that drives them to pick that same partner over and over. It's familiarity. It's a habituation to the cycle. And if we're not breaking the cycle and the pattern of what we experienced in childhood or what we believe to be about ourselves, true, right? I'm not good enough. I don't deserve.

Andrea McTague: Mhm.

Genevieve Malena: I am worth less, so I have to give more, right? I remember I've had a series of relationships and leaving one that I had been in for quite a while and being on my own for quite a bit and not really knowing what kind of relationship I was going to end up in again because I didn't know, I knew I didn't want that anymore. I knew I didn't want to be in a relationship where I was giving, giving, giving, giving and not getting that reciprocation. But then what else was out there? And I really didn't know. I had to look at my own stuff to understand, right?

Andrea McTague: 100%. And I think that it goes back to like say with that sort of thing, we go into a thing where we go, okay, well, why did I pick someone? Or why did I shape this dynamic? Sometimes the person isn't like that and we make it into a giving, giving, giving, giving dynamic, right? And we see that quite often where one partner is in the position of like taking, taking, taking. I talk about one of the limiting beliefs that we always see with that, one of the limiting belief patterns.

Genevieve Malena: Yeah. I do.

Andrea McTague: is I'm worthless, which sounds like a super harsh one. And people aren't like walking around in their head being like, I'm worthless today. But we see it show up in the dysfunctional need. So the dysfunctional need for I'm worthless is I need to provide value. Well, if you only feel good and comfortable, if you're providing value, you are going to pick a person, partner that takes because then you give, they take, you feel all good. And this is at a subconscious level. This is not conscious. So this is a subconscious level. So you're giving, giving, giving.

Genevieve Malena: Hahaha Bye. Mm-hmm. that tape. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Right.

Andrea McTague: and they're taking, taking, taking. And that feels comfortable until you're really far into the dynamic and all of a sudden you're like, hey, this is totally non-reciprocal. I don't exist. I'm just like supply for you, which is actually a really common dynamic that we see. It could be like really big or really small. Sometimes I'd say on the like really big side, that's when you're getting into like, you you're in a relationship with like a full blown narcissist or whatever, but it can exist in everything in between that too. And then

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Yes. Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: They will generally at that point, the person who's the giver will have a blow up reaction because they got all this stockpiled stuff of like, I've done this for you and this for you and you never do anything, blah, blah, blah, blah. And that reaction comes out loaded with emotions from like the past five bazillion times. then, yeah, then what happened? Yeah, exactly. And then the partnership person, they react to the reaction.

Genevieve Malena: Yep. Yep. And then they can think. Bring up 15 different things. Yeah. And nobody knows what to pick. Yep. Yes. Yes. Yes. Why are we shifting the culture? This is just the way it's been. This is what we agreed to. So what you're talking about. Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea McTague: They're just why you're being so crazy. Like you always do all the dishes. Like today you decide not to, whatever. Exactly. Which also sounds like gaslighting often at that point, which sometimes it is. And sometimes it's just them pointing out that this is actually the dynamic that we are normally in. Like, what is your issue today? And it can trigger that pattern again. Or I think it can trigger what you were saying, where you go into, okay, well, I'm going to go do some digging and see like, why am I doing that? Like, why am I giving, giving, giving to the point where I get resentful and like lose my mind?

Genevieve Malena: Yeah. Right. Yes, I think it's so, so easy in relationship to just blame the other partner, right? Like how many times do we see, you know, even our own friends and family just bitching about their partner, right? And it's really easy to do that. It's really easy to put it all on them. But I would rather be the one that is in control of what I'm doing because then I can do something about it. But the whole thing that you're talking about is accommodation.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve Malena: Right? And accommodation brings with it resentment. Every time we say yes to somebody else and no to ourselves, we build the wall of resentment. And so I talk about that a lot too, that I don't actually believe that people fall out of love. I think that the walls of resentment build so high and so strong that we can't get through them anymore. And so we look at that accommodation as a form of communication. And I talked to and a lot of accommodators end up with competitors. So it's I win, you lose and I lose, you win. Right. And then we get what we call volcano anger. OK, we we take and take and take and take long enough until we have a straw that broke the camel's back moment and we lose our shit. And then the other person is like, whoa, you're an angry person.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Where did this come from? Well, because of course the other person catches them off guard because you haven't mentioned, you're like, I actually need this or I'm overloaded or I'm at capacity or I would like this from you because of course if the dysfunctional need driving it is like I need to provide value. There is no, I need to accept because I was having a conversation with somebody the other day about this and it was like, well, I think a lot of people in our society have

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: provision of value. We're very provision of value dominant society. Like do this, be perfect, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like it's a performance culture. So that one's really, really common. And I think that we forget that the other part of love is actually like accepting things. you know, stating needs and taking them.

Genevieve Malena: Thank you. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Well, not just being so nit picky, right? Like, you know, we all we all have things that our partners do that annoy us. We all do. But you know what? If we're going to nitpick and take every single one of those things and compile them and and then throw them all at the person all at once, they don't know how to decipher. They don't know where to go with it. And also we are in a culture where we haven't learned how to communicate in a healthy, effective way. And that comes from, you know, our childhoods, our non-nurturing elements. For myself, I really had to learn that if I'm feeling overwhelmed, frustrated, overloaded, I have to use words to do that. I'm not, you know, slamming cupboard doors or putting a coffee cup harder down on the counter, right? Those things are are clues and I am trying to communicate in that but I'm not communicating effectively because what then happens on the other side she's bitchy today right like that's not exactly

Andrea McTague: Yeah, gonna wreck the counter to inconsiderate, whatever. Well, and it's also, think it's a little bit of understanding the dynamic in the household that you grew up in, which not necessarily from a negative lens or whatnot. Like for instance, I grew up in a really traditional gender split kind of whatever, like dad works beside the home, mom stays home, does that sort of thing. And I realized later, later in life.

Genevieve Malena: Totally. Nope. A curious one. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: that I actually really enjoy a really traditional feminine masculine balance of energy in relationship. But that's not necessarily like the presentation, right? So for presenting as you're like, this is like, you know, I've got the business to do the thing, whatever. But that's not necessarily the balance that works because the underlying programming is I expect you to occupy this thing because I expect to be able to occupy this role.

Genevieve Malena: No? No, Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: and you bring in all of these expectations, which we then don't put words to and just slam the coffee cup or whatnot on top of all of those pieces. Are you seeing any specific patterns that you think are coming out more and more because we have had this evolution in society from a really clear girls do this, boys do that. And now we've like moved into, you know, a lot of, there's a little bit more of fluidity.

Genevieve Malena: huh. huh. huh. huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh.

Andrea McTague: on the roles, who's doing what, who you're with, all of that kind of stuff. Are you seeing certain patterns kind of coming out around that?

Genevieve Malena: Yes, I am. So you're talking more about like the pink blue dynamic, right? The traditional dynamic. And I think part, yes, I think that, well, there's a couple of different things. And I, and I'm speaking, you know, stereotypically men, women, right? Like cisgendered relationships.

Andrea McTague: We'll say, but generally I would say like this accounts for like the masculine or feminine energies. So that might be occupied by a different gender. That's our little caveat on it because I think that's more the energy exchange thing.

Genevieve Malena: Energy. Yes. Mm hmm. Well, I definitely and you and I are very similar in this and we know this about ourselves. We we hold a lot of masculine energy a lot of the time. We're and masculine divine family famine and divine masculine energy is get shit done. You know, go get her very business oriented. That's what I think of very business oriented. Very like let's get that. just going to get all this stuff done. It's it's not that it's hard.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Out in the world. Yeah, this looks some good.

Genevieve Malena: or rigid, but it's more firm, right? And then if we talk about divine feminine energy, that to me is like fluidity. That to me is like equanimity, moving through life. I kind of think of like a boho hippie girl running through a meadow with a flower crown, right? And we all have all of these energies in us.

Andrea McTague: Well, I also think there's a thing where if we look at the masculine energy, it's often a more independent, like individualistic energy, whereas the divine feminine kind of occupies more cooperative energy. So we'll look to engage in certain ways. And it makes sense because evolutionarily, that role is like, you have to be more emotionally attuned because you got a small person there that you're supposed to take care of or whatever.

Genevieve Malena: Yes. Hmm.

Andrea McTague: And then the display of emotions is like, because you got to protect a provider that you got to explain like, I am sad, something is wrong, or I am happy, everything is fine, which is one of the reasons they think that women emote more visibly than men, right?

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Well, our ACC or our Antik and anterior, yes, exactly. You know the thing. I just shorten it and I can never remember the word for it. But it's more active in women because we're more relational. And so it goes back to evolutionary psych, right? That if we don't know where we stand with our partner, we feel like we're dying, right? We go back to, exactly, right?

Andrea McTague: I'm going to singulate. Yeah, because you're supposed to be watching over me because I got these like vulnerable little babies and now you got to go get the food and then make sure lines don't eat us and if you're I don't know that we're connected.

Genevieve Malena: Right, right. I can't do all the things. Yeah, I can't. I have to keep I have to stay home and keep the home fires burning. That's my job. You're supposed to protect me and keep me safe. And I don't even know where the fuck you are. And you're not answering my calls. Right.

Andrea McTague: I think this is one of the reasons why we see that women, they feel disconnected, so if there's not enough eye contact, if there's not enough safe touch, if there's not enough emotional validation or space for them to be acknowledged, they won't have the reaction of just being like, well, they get angry. And the level of anger becomes defensive. And then they'll also put up a wall where it just blocks any, because they basically are categorizing their mate then as like, okay, you're actually not, you're not,

Genevieve Malena: I love you guys. yes. You're not keeping me safe, so now I have to do it for myself.

Andrea McTague: doing the provider thing. Yeah, and when I talk about providers, I'm not talking about he has this in his bank account, thank you, I'm talking about the provision of safety, the feeling of safety.

Genevieve Malena: Exactly. The feeling. The feeling. And so when women don't know where they stand with their man, it's akin to a predator in the woods, right? It's akin to being completely unsafe and vulnerable.

Andrea McTague: And on the same side, when we look at non-nurturing elements with children, is if the child looks to the parent and doesn't feel that attachment, they automatically nervous system jacks up because they're like, well, I don't know how to keep myself safe because I'm three. So if you're not watching me, I count on you.

Genevieve Malena: Mm hmm. I need you. Yes, exactly. I need you to be and we look at that in regulation, right? So it doesn't necessarily even mean that that parent is not in the home or has left them alone. But if you go back to Bowlby experiments where you've got, know, probably not ethical research now, but you've got a kid in the high chair and you've got mom engaging and serve and return and, you know, cooing and and peekaboo and patty cake and everything that's looking, right? You laugh, I laugh, you smile, I smile. And then you have mom turn around and come back with complete flat affect. What happens to that baby? Keeps trying to bid, keeps trying to bid, keeps trying to bid. Complete dysregulated reaction in the end. Full-blown temper tantrum, tears, super distressed because their mom's not there.

Andrea McTague: .

Genevieve Malena: even though she's sitting right in front of them. So when you've got a partner who's shut down and you're trying and we as women, well, I know for myself, my operating manual is the less I feel understood, the more dysregulated I become, right?

Andrea McTague: Yeah, 100%. And I wonder, like I see a lot of this being amplified, especially post-COVID, with the increased use of screens and phones. So you're in the same room, but partners got the phone out and is on it. And this goes both ways, but I'm seeing more complaints probably from the women about the guys being on the phone, which makes sense because they're kind of a little bit more oriented to objects.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: but it's creating this semblance of we're having a relationship because we're sitting in the same room. But the attention, which is currency in a relationship, is actually going towards the thing, the phone or the TV or the whatever, the hockey game or whatever, rather than that person. So it's creating that nervous system dysregulation. And both on the child side and on the romantic partner side, and I think it's really doing some serious, serious damage.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: which is why I think we're seeing like an increase in marital discord, increase in divorces, increase in a whole bunch of moods.

Genevieve Malena: I agree. It's a lack of connection. It's a lack of connection, you know? I love those, the concept of having like a phone box on the table. And so everyone puts their phones away. You know, I used to work in the restaurant industry and you're serving people and both people are on their phones. Like, where's the date? What's going on here, right?

Andrea McTague: you're like what's going on? So as we talk about the influence that the phones and the screens and stuff like that are having on relationships, because I see that brought up over and over again with couples. it's, I talk about how, you whatever you did to fall in love, you kind of have to do to stay in love. But I think it goes into a whole bunch of other pieces, because we can't get to the phone bowl, which I love that idea.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm.

Andrea McTague: until we figure out like what is going on there. And I think that there's some understanding of you actually need to spend some time together, not time with the TV or time with the phones. But what do you think is causing that pattern to so strongly come up in relationships now?

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Well, I think the trajectory of, you know, internet and electronics and social media, it has happened faster in the last 50 years than it's ever happened before. Right. And it's just become part of this culture that it's just not even looked at. And so we're not we're excusing the behavior. as it being normal, right? And I think also what we're doing too is we go back to that blame and shame, right? So if we've got, let's take a husband just for the scenario that's on his phone all the time. Maybe he's checking sports stats, maybe he's gambling on the football game, maybe he's playing boom beach, which is one I see a lot. then the wife is sitting there feeling, you know, invisible, feeling alone.

Andrea McTague: alone.

Genevieve Malena: even when somebody's right there beside them. And then what do we go to? You're always on your fucking phone. Why don't we talk anymore? Why don't we do anything? When really we want to bring it back to, I really would like some close time with you. I really need some time, just you and I. Can we maybe play game or can we go for a walk? It's more about emoting.

Andrea McTague: Thank Have fun.

Genevieve Malena: And the reason why people don't do that is because it's very vulnerable, right? So we're gonna ask for what we need from somebody who we're already feeling disconnected from. Also, we have to learn how to ask for what we need properly, right? Instead of slamming the coffee cup down on the counter, right? Or on that couch with somebody on their phone. And then what happens? We turn away.

Andrea McTague: Yeah, 100%. Or even like going back to like identifying what you need. So like that's one thing that we play with a lot in relationship land is the identification of needs. Because sometimes it's just like, I'm pissed because you're on your phone. Okay, well, what need is there that is not met? Because at the baseline you're looking at, is your partner meeting your needs? Are you meeting their needs? And then that's what creates the stabilization and dynamics. But so often, we don't know. Like, what is it?

Genevieve Malena: I will. Right, what's not being met? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We don't, we also don't know that whatever's going on for that other person is about them, not us, right? So when we've got people on their phones, okay, so there's five levels of dissociation, right? The worst level, the biggest level is amnesia, right? Where we don't remember anything. The first level, which is natural for all of us is watching TV on our phone, reading a book, doing something and somebody's like, and somebody's like, Andrea, Andrea.

Andrea McTague: autopilot drive work.

Genevieve Malena: Andrea and you're not hearing them. You're not ignoring them. You're just so you don't hear them. You're dissociated and that is a normal level and that's normal for people when they're on their phones. Our brains can't do more than one thing at once. We think multitasking is a thing. It's not. Our brains are tuned to doing one thing and then doing that thing. One thing doing another thing.

Andrea McTague: yet. Check it out. I think all that driving and talking on the cell phone research definitely demonstrated that. You're like, you're not doing anything well. You both have to be graded.

Genevieve Malena: Right. Exactly. Exactly. You're half-assing both. So if you've got somebody that's on their phone and they're half turning to you, they're still not with you. So that ask of, do you have a second? Can you put your phone down for just a second? I really need to talk to you about something. Undivided attention is a lost art. It's a lost art. Right?

Andrea McTague: Yeah, which I think we have to build the environments for and build the expectation for. And then it makes everything a lot better because at the first part, you're doing eye contact, right? We look at eye contact is so huge with humans and attachment, whether it's like mother to a newborn baby or whether it's, you know, first date gazing across the table, look deep into each other's eyes. There's a reason it's spoken about by all the poets and songs and so on. Yeah.

Genevieve Malena: You know? Well, it's a physiological reaction. Babies need to do that, right? Babies look at our eyes and if our pupils dilate, well, first theirs do, because theirs dilate so that we're like, that baby loves me, right? And then ours will dilate. And then what do we do? We care for them, right? Because now we're attached to them. And so if we're not getting that same recognition from our partner, our bodies know whether we're connected or

Andrea McTague: Yeah. Yeah. Kind of, I think what it was, it's like about three times, women get three times the amount of oxytocin from strong and sustained eye contact than men do. So it's very important to us for that attachment piece. So I think when we move into the void, it's also in other studies we were looking at, it's also really, really, really implicated in the development of attraction, particularly for women, but in general is we are more attracted to people that think it's one of the components when we've got this

Genevieve Malena: I'm gonna go ahead and... Yes. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: sustained eye contact, and then we pair that with touch, which is another one, and then we add on emotional vulnerability. Now we have that person that we're attracted to. And I think we've all had partners where, you know, maybe you're like, there's the guy that's like, okay, he looks like he fell out of GQ. He's aesthetically pleasing to like an objective level. You're like, okay. But that doesn't mean that he's the person that we're most attracted to, because that attraction comes out of those three things, plus a bit of chemistry.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: which we think we usually, I usually check that box off. I'm like, generally speaking, if you come into my office and you were in a relationship, you're in a relationship with somebody, there was some chemistry 90 % of the time, right? Exactly. So we're like, okay, well that one's there. But the other ones, that's when it goes into a different thing. And then that brings in touch. And it was funny, because if I've asked, I've been playing this game with the love languages. And whenever I ask one of my male clients what their love language is, and this is, I'm not a big love language person.

Genevieve Malena: something happens. yeah, Mm-hmm. Physical touch every

Andrea McTague: But if we actually

Genevieve Malena: time.

Andrea McTague: look at the physical touch thing less in a love language way and more in a biological driveway or an evolutionary drive, that starts to make a lot more sense. And if we look at the role that we play, when we give that physical touch to your intimate partner who is a male in this scenario, you see the effects on their testosterone, which is like mood and motivation regulation for men. Right? So I see so many men and so many women as well.

Genevieve Malena: I'm I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: A lot of the male clients I have, that is one of their first complaints. Well, we don't have any intimacy. And they're focusing on the absence of sex, but usually it's all of the physical touch that leads up to that as well. So, which is hugely, hugely damaging to a relationship. And then on the other side, she's like, well, he doesn't give me attention. Well, those two things are actually the same thing.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I Right? Mm-hmm. They are the same thing. I often will prescribe sex off the table for couples because a lot of times it sets this expectation that touch leads to sex and we actually need like 12 hugs a day. A 20 second hug will release oxytocin and that's what we're looking for and men I think sometimes equate sex with the only way that they can get oxytocin. because that's just the way that they've been trained or taught how to get it, right? The release, then the orgasm gap, right? Because men tend to orgasm way more than women do. right.

Andrea McTague: Yeah, that's all there is. Unless you create the landscape where you've done incremental physical contact for the woman and a lot of eye contact and then she will often like pop off in that area.

Genevieve Malena: Exactly. Because well, because women need more time. We need more time. We need more attention. We need more grooming, as it were. Right? Yes, absolutely. Yeah, for

Andrea McTague: Yeah, so it's like, the dinner table and then go from there. Not only for women though, but for men because it's like, if you're seeing a girl, you come home from work, she gives you a big hug, kiss on the cheek and then tells you, you like this or you're handsome with this or whatever. But is there present looking at you, wondering about how, what do you think about this, et cetera, et cetera. Now you feel wanted. And so then when you make that move to go into the sex realm,

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: It's accepted, not rejected, which then is confirming.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, that's, yeah, that divine femininity, right? We're in surrender then because guess what? We feel safe. And women need to feel safe in order to engage in those kinds of acts in a healthy way, right?

Andrea McTague: Yes. And this is where we talk about it a lot of times where I'm like, well, look, if you're only interaction with your wife, because the majority of my case, what has meant, if you're only interaction with her is like, her, bugging her when you get into bed together, you guys haven't, yeah, you haven't connected all day, didn't ask her about how she is. There's no like soft kind of like gentle touch kiss on the forehead kind of vibe. She is like,

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. grabbing her boots. Yep. Right. Yep.

Andrea McTague: you are effectively to her nervous system a stranger and we are taught to be like, no, we're going to boundary that, right? Yeah, and that's where you get either like a lack of sex, intimacy, or you get chore sex, which I think is extremely damaging. Yep, 100 % because everybody knows when they're having chore sex, right? He knows, she knows, it's not good, it's not going anywhere. But I think that there's this fear often where it's like, well, if we don't have the chore sex, then

Genevieve Malena: I'm gonna protect myself from that. Mm, obligatory. Yeah, obligatory. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: We're never going to have any intimacy and then I'm just never going to get laid again and it's a spiral there. But what we all really want is then exactly, but we all really would prefer the dynamic of being really wanted and really desired by your partner and like really seen that she's like fully present is like, I think you're sexy. And he's like, yeah, I just think you're beautiful. And I like, you know, wanting to into that. And that's where we see like the healthy intimacy coming up and more sustainable.

Genevieve Malena: wants a rhetoric that's created between two people, right? That's the Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That genuine appreciation is genuine appreciation. the wall typically when that's happening, the walls of resentment are really, really high. And so we need to dismantle them. We need to dismantle them. We need to look at emotional harm that has occurred. We need to unpack, repair. We're all going to fuck up our relationships. We're all going to hurt each other. That is just a natural way of being right.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve Malena: but repair is the key. If we can repair the emotional harms that have happened within relationship, then we can move forward and we grow from that, right? I think the interesting thing, and this isn't all couples, some couples come to therapy to break up. That is a thing that does happen. But for the most part, if each individual is engaged in wanting to thrive in the relationship,

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Genevieve Malena: The interesting thing that they sometimes don't realize is all of these conflicts, all of these challenges, all of these butting heads, all of these desperate attempts to be understood are because we want to keep one another. We want to keep one another. And if we didn't, then we'd be gone. Because the opposite.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's why when I see people where they've been doing that, they've been having the little arguments and tips or approaching and approaching. sometimes it's my client that I'm warning. I'm like, hey, when she stops approaching for those little fights, that's when you're anything or when he stops being, he's just like, yeah, okay, whatever, do what you want. Like when you get into that, that's what pre-exit looks like.

Genevieve Malena: Bad. Mm-hmm. Absolutely, because the bargaining has stopped working, right? So the opposite of love is not hate. The opposite of love is apathy. When we don't give a anymore, we're gone. We've done our grieving. You know, we go in a cycle with relationships, especially volatile relationships, but we'll have the crisis, we'll have the fight, we'll have the big upheaval, and then we'll go into, if we want to stay together, bargaining, right? Okay, no, I'll go to therapy, babe.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve Malena: I'll get help. won't throw my socks on the floor anymore. I promise I won't get angry anymore. Right. And then so if the bargaining works, then we go into pretend normal. Right. Everything's hunky dory. We're back in love. Everything's fine. But the tension is building tensions building and right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And now they're at 100. Right. Now they've got their now they've got their full

Andrea McTague: Because there's an expectation the other person's watching. They're like, OK, is this a real thing or is this just like, you know, a little deep? Yeah.

Genevieve Malena: I'm go mode suit on, right? Whatever show it is, whatever mask it would be, the hundred percent, but you can only sustain that for so long because it's not real, right? It's not, it's not, it's coming from a place of desperation. I don't want to lose you. So I'm going to do the thing.

Andrea McTague: So where should people go to? So they've had the big blowout, it's been a thing, and then they're in this thing where normally they would go to bargaining. What would you suggest in that moment otherwise?

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, when we start, when we split, because lots of people when they split up, they've already had several mini divorces, right? And that's when that bargaining has worked. They don't split. So we look at the bargaining. We look at this is your desperate attempt to keep this. But what if we moved that to a different place in the cycle? Right? Because or an

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Genevieve Malena: We just let the we let the pretend normal happen and then we don't engage in the bargaining, right? We don't allow that to be part of the cycle. We recognize it and understand that that person is doing those things because of this thing and not because of something I've done or something that I deserve, right? Right. We're unpacking that in that pretend normal stage, right?

Andrea McTague: So you refocus to the underlying problem and the dynamic essentially. Well, I think in that way also the bargaining, if looked at differently, could be a really good little like bin of clues where you're like, well, the bargaining that you're doing is okay, I won't be on my phone all the time or okay, I will pick up the socks or okay, I won't yell when I get mad. Yeah.

Genevieve Malena: Right. Right. What are you really asking for though? What are you really asking for? And what's really going on for you? And that's the work, right? There are some schools of thought out there that couples counseling is kind of bunk, right? Because it really should be that each person is doing their own individual work of whatever's showing up within the relationship, which I do believe to be true. But then I do believe there's a reconvening that has to happen and a sharing of

Andrea McTague: huh.

Genevieve Malena: This is what I've learned about myself. This is why I show up this way when this thing happens, right?

Andrea McTague: And I have some interesting opinions about couples therapy. I think it's like in general, if we go overarching, does it have benefit? Yeah. Does it have benefit for every type of couple? No. And I think that that's the thing. And when we get into that piece where you're talking about, okay, so they realize, you know, I am emotionally dismissive to my partner or I am really angry at my partner because this thing happened or whatever, but there's still that interest in being emotionally vulnerable and curious, like, why did she have the affair? Or what is going on with this? Or what is the consequence? Or why do I get so angry when he does this? When you still have that curiosity and a genuine curiosity, which is kind of the precursor, I think, to vulnerability, when you have that, I think it can work really well. Because then you kind of have a coach or guide almost to help you explore those things to get to those root issues. But where I don't see it working,

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Great.

Andrea McTague: And sometimes this changes. Sometimes people start in this don't see it working position, but then they move to the curiosity. But it would be when you've got one partner who is coming in because they are frustrated. They've been in bargaining. They've been in arguing. They've been in, I brought it to you. I've told you I've tried. And the other partner is just like, no, like just a kind of shut down, pulled out, stonewalling, just not interested.

Genevieve Malena: And Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: in the provision of any emotional vulnerability, and they're really stuck in that externalizing blame game or competitive thing or whatnot. And I think that that's where, if that continually shows up, that's where we go. And it doesn't really matter whether it's different conversation.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's a different conversation. That's a different conversation. And one of the things I say to my couples too is we're not focusing on outcome. If you stay together, you stay together. If you don't stay together, you don't stay together. If we're focused on that, then we're not learning through the journey, right? And really genuinely, if we are getting into empathy and compassion, we want the best for that other person, regardless of whether they're with us or not.

Andrea McTague: Okay.

Genevieve Malena: We want them to be happy. We want them

Andrea McTague: Yeah. And we're not necessarily even talking about a split because sometimes people will stay in a pattern where there is complete disengagement for various external reasons. And we have no recommendation on that. And I'd say that's probably a pretty clear distinction we should make is like, we're never like, yeah, you guys should get divorced or you guys should get together. Like that's not the jam. It's just literally looking at the underlying things in the dynamic. And sometimes you see that there is just stuff in that dynamic that is not a fit and it's not

Genevieve Malena: Is it? No, not our job.

Andrea McTague: going to be a fit. And then you go, well, like, what are the effects? And this is where I like to go with it with my clients is what are the effects? What is the opportunity cost of remaining in this dynamic that is mismatched, unhealthy, whatever it is, or like not without the participation of the other person?

Genevieve Malena: Mm hmm. Or right. And then, you know, you've got other limiting beliefs that show up in those kinds of scenarios, like I'm a failure. If I let this fail, I didn't do what I needed to do. And for women that needs identifying picture, especially if there's children involved, is I must keep my family together. Right. Yeah. Mm hmm. That's true. Mm hmm.

Andrea McTague: I see that with the guys though too, right? Like, I don't want to leave because the kids, I'm going to ruin their thing and I'm a terrible person and do do do do do and whatnot and whatnot. I think the kids...

Genevieve Malena: I am failing as a man and as a husband and as a provider and all of like, I failed to keep it together. I failed to be in the divine masculine, right?

Andrea McTague: all of them. So what do you think it is then to just get into some strategies? So we've talked about the identification of one's patterns being really, really handy to know and just biases, perspectives, expectations, like that you know what it is actually that you need and you know what you want. And sometimes the needs I will clarify also are based on dysfunctional needs from limiting belief patterns, but sometimes they're just functional needs, right? Like if you need a partner that is gonna engage in a, I don't know, drug-free lifestyle or

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: you know, really enjoy participating with your family of origin and going to all the events and whatever. I those are just sometimes functional needs and you can kind of negotiate them. Some of them are deal breakers. We see this a lot with monogamy, right? One partner is extremely monogamous and the other person's like, well, I want to like try to do X and Y and Z and whatever. So sometimes it's that kind of stuff. But if you see people and they're kind of struggling first stage to identify these needs,

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: Would you say that couples therapy or individual therapy is the better venue to do that?

Genevieve Malena: I would say that if those needs are not identified and people don't actually even understand what they need, that's an individual issue. That's something they need to look at and unpack from, because that's their unfinished business, right? And so if they've got unfinished business that they've identified, then we've got something to work with there, right?

Andrea McTague: Okay. 100%.

Genevieve Malena: But if it's not even identified and that other person is just continually triggering them without any movement towards understanding, then there's some individual work that needs to be done there for sure.

Andrea McTague: And that's kind of where I agree with you because I see people individually and then we realize that a lot of these needs are dysfunctional needs related to limiting beliefs related to past crap. We'll go ahead and we've got a great little technique to like clean those up, just sketch them from their brains. But then they're going into a couple of therapy with their part of the foundational work done. And then they can see what like plays out. So it's an interesting kind of match up.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm. Right. Exactly. Well, we also need to renegotiate our relationships. They don't stay the same every five to 10 years, especially with the addition of children and and and maybe, you know, more commitment or moving into like we have to renegotiate. We don't we I don't think we fundamentally change, but life changes, right? Circumstances. Right. Exactly.

Andrea McTague: Yeah, 100%. And you are a different person in different stages of life with different experiences. And I think the other thing I hear this often is like, well, he's such a good husband now that he's with her. You're like, no, he's a different person in that relationship. It's just a different person because he's having his needs met by her in a different way than with you. So it's like, there's not this one-to-one comparison stuff that happens, right?

Genevieve Malena: It shouldn't be a comparison is the thief of joy and and we all operate different, right? We all have a different operating manual. We all we all have a different way of moving through the world. And if we're sometimes it's just not the right fit, right? It's just not the right fit. Also, what happens? We talk about that helium balloon analogy. If we're starting to look at our stuff, then we're vibrating differently, right? We're not vibrating at the same level that we were before.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Genevieve Malena: if we're really starting to unpack this, this stuff that's holding us back and we only match with people that vibrate on a similar level to us. Our shit might show up different, right? But we've got to have the same level of shit because it's not, you're not going to have a super high functioning, healthy, you know, person that's looked at their shadows and done a fuck ton of therapy and they're not going to be with somebody who

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Genevieve Malena: can't even identify what they need, right? That's just not gonna ever happen. But we do, right? Exactly, exactly.

Andrea McTague: They're speaking different languages at that point and on different frequencies. It's just not a connecting thing, right? And I think that that one thing about dynamics is they always, there's always a, go, they look to reset to their norm. So this was the original dynamic. And so if you're changing it, it's going to take a little bit, there's going to be a response burst. And if that person comes with you, then that can be wildly positively transformative. But, That doesn't always happen. And it's not always clear how long something will take too, right? Like maybe they are coming with you, just not at the pace where you're quite at. So you can see like a little bit of movement in allowing that patience. It's a very interesting thing around that. And I think just in general, expectations, needs. So what we're gonna do for our listeners is we're gonna repost an activity called Needs in Relationship on the website. So you can download that if you want to start doing some of that investigation. And the reason I like the needs and relationship piece is it starts with like what your needs are. So like what Jen and I are talking about, you know, identifying what is it that you need first so you don't get into that externalizing of you need to do this. And you're like, yeah, but if I don't even know what I need, then how am I logically asking you for what I need? I'm telling you what you need to do, which is like,

Genevieve Malena: Thank you.

Andrea McTague: then you get into your defensive blaming stuff. So we'll post that up there. Anything in final that you want to leave with our listeners,

Genevieve Malena: No, it's as lovely to be here. so like thought provoking. It's gonna, you know, help my practice to be able to talk about this stuff outside with other practitioners. And I hope some of this was helpful for viewers and listeners. yeah, no, I'm...

Andrea McTague: It's such a meaty topic that I'm sure we will have you back on to talk about some of the, well, like some of the millions of things that come out of that and we can build on that. Speaking of which, if you're listening to this and one of the kind of like items in here, whether it's sex or phone dynamics or whatever, piqued your attention, shoot us a little comment and we can expand on that for you.

Genevieve Malena: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Other than that, we will be showing up on your Instagram and YouTube and all of that stuff. You can get a hold of Jen on Shiftgrid.com if we want to have a chit chat or you and your partner want to have a chit chat session with her. That's available. And otherwise, if you've got some independent stuff, you can chat with one of our wonderful brain benders. And for that, thank you very much for tuning into the Shift Show today. Jen, again, thanks for joining us and we'll see you on the next one.

Genevieve Malena: Mm-hmm