How to Tell If Therapy Is Actually Working: 4 Signs of an Effective Therapist

Andrea McTague: Hello and welcome to the Shift Show episode 39. I'm your host, Andrea McTague. I'm a registered psychologist and the founder of ShiftGrit Counselling and Psychology. And today I am joined by Brendon Braithwaite, who came out into our internship program, and now he is one of our staff mental health therapists. So Brendon, welcome to the show.

Brendon Braithwaite: Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

Andrea McTague: It's kind of a fun one. So why don't I just start by talking about a little bit about what it's like to come on and what what is your internship like with us and then a little bit about what you think about the method and what you've seen with your clients and things like that.

Brendon Braithwaite: Sure, yeah. my experience was really good overall. I got to meet a lot of great people here. the method itself is like really trained well here. I think you guys have gotten a lot of reps in teaching it to people and yeah, I it shows. So yeah, the experience, you know, you have your jitters and nerves coming in just 'cause it's an internship and I haven't done it before, but

Andrea McTague: One percent.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, as soon as I got over those, the experience has been great. We had another intern that I really enjoyed getting to know and she and I kinda went through the journey together and that was that was really valuable for me too. So

Andrea McTague: Well it's nice to have a partner with you. And I think like one of the things that, you know, you mentioned kind of the jitters because we all go to school and we get all this like theoretical foundation and we have tons of like, okay, I've read this method and this one and this client population. We've done these like mock counseling things or whatever. But one thing that was really freaking me out is when I got into my internship, I was like, I don't actually know how to do this in like application. And that's one of the things that we wanted to solve via our training program. So

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Absolutely.

Andrea McTague: That's probably check.

Brendon Braithwaite: I yeah, I I had that same kind of feeling. I came in and it was like, All right, you're at your first session, you've been to school, so it's okay. Just make sure you remember all of that and have it all in mind when you start. And then you realize, yeah, it's not actually that's not how it's done. You you know the steps. Yeah, yeah.

Andrea McTague: Yeah. Hundred percent. Well, and I think that that's why we have such a structured training program, which kind of looks like, you know, our little background shift academy, but also some live trainings and then our professional development and consultation groups, because it was like, okay, the depth and the breadth of this field, like it's so huge. How do you know how to do what with which client? And that is something that our method answers because it I didn't like that feeling. It was a little too unnerving, a little too like amorphous.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: So when you came out of the training program, how did you feel about being ready to see clients at that point then? What was that like?

Brendon Braithwaite: I think actually, you know, it we did a little bit of shadow sessions. Those helped a lot. I felt I felt pretty prepared. and like I felt as prepared as anyone could do be doing something totally new for the first time. yeah.

Andrea McTague: Well, you hit the ground running hard, like you like out the gate, you're like, I was like, this is impressive, this is great. So that that's cool. It's kind of I think and that's one of the things that's a big differentiator about us versus like your average private practice is that we do train and that there is a specific method so you can get really good quite quickly at client work.

Brendon Braithwaite: I appreciate that. Yeah, yeah. I appreciate it.

Andrea McTague: So talk to me a little bit about what you saw with your clients and stuff like that. So you get out, you're doing the thing, because this is the first time you get that feedback loop of a client and how they're doing versus the textbook and what it's telling you. So what was that like when you started to see what what's happening with your clients or how it was to work with your clients in the first little bit?

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, it ended up, you know, you have this idea in your head of all the worst case scenarios, or maybe that's just me, but I you know, you expect to sit down and have a client tell you, Well, here's why I'm suicidal, and if you don't say the right thing right now, I it's gonna be your fault. And I'm kinda like that that's dispelled quite quickly when you sit down. I got I'm talking to some of the people are just looking to enhance their life. So they actually have a good life. They're not They're not suffering from serious dysfunctions that make it impossible to be happy. They want to improve something in their life. So that was a welcome surprise that some of this stuff is lower stakes.

Andrea McTague: A lot of our clients are like that. Like I'd say I'd say probably like fifty percent of our clients are looking to enhance like across the board, get rid of like life blahs, or they have one area that they're just like, okay, I wanna level up, whether it's relationship communication or their eating habits or their money management or like these very like practical real life, I wanna procrastinate less kind of things. So that was surprising to you to see so much of that.

Brendon Braithwaite: Absolutely. And I that was a good surprise. because I I do think that's one of the strengths of the method is that it works it it doesn't stop working once you've addressed your most serious issue. You just move on to the next most serious issue. And it's kind of our nature, I think, as human beings to you know, we're always bothered by something. There you're just not we're not creatures that get

Andrea McTague: The Buddhist principle is like suffering is an an inevitability in life. Well, I think ambitious people too, right? Like we see a lot of really ambitious clients. So they recognize it's very cool to see the transition of therapy being used only for those like acute concerns, you know, whatever, acute anxiety or suicidality or whatever. And it's now come so much into the public domain that people are using it for that enhancement benefit.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah. And Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: That I like a lot. It's very, very neat. Cause like we were like, why not? We always say it's kind of like non-functional to functional to fine to like F an amazing.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, absolutely. And I've I've seen, you know, this method too. The the way that we kind of get at the core of some of the emotions that people are experiencing. That I do think the people with the most serious issues get the most benefit the most quickly, in my experience. but yeah, there's so much more that you can do without really changing it that much, just going to the next the next limiting belief that you work on.

Andrea McTague: I think kind of a cool comparison is you know, if you take somebody who's like really, really physically out of shape and you put them in a pretty hardcore program and you're like, okay, we're gonna do this, it'll be they'll have the largest amount of like weight loss, et cetera, et cetera. And they can build the most, but as they get as you get more and more in shape, you're still moving the needle, but it looks smaller just because there's less of that initial to go kind of thing. So we see those and those small needle moves can be pretty impactful still. Especially if they are focusing on one thing. But that I would say is probably why we have so many long term clients. Because of what you said, where it's we're not working on the same issue for that entire year, because like you shouldn't be, right? That should that the needle should be moving. But when you get into and I was talking to one of my clients about this, and I was like, Well, why do you want to keep going? And she's like, Well, because if it worked on these like huge things for me, then I know that rather than just like banging my head against the wall, I can like apply this and it'll

Brendon Braithwaite: So

Andrea McTague: start moving the needle in these like little irritant areas or whatever, which is kind of fun.

Brendon Braithwaite: for sure. And I I've s I'm seeing people get kind of like inspired and a little bit addicted to the momentum and the progress and the forward movement. Like that I mean, that's just so built into us. That's it's the and you know, i if you can get forward movement, all of the pain is just a little less. All the pleasure comes up a notch and you just that's something that's not easy to give up. So it's well and they're getting something worthwhile.

Andrea McTague: What do you think is it that makes it do that? That like that continued momentum? Like what is it do you think about the method or the way we do it here that does that?

Brendon Braithwaite: I think because that drive is a deep emotional drive, the wish to move forward, be productive, I think that's the deepest part of us and that the part where we get those deep feelings of meaning. And so when you're improving your life, naturally you're improving other people's lives, you're integrating better into your work, into your family, into your, you know, romantic relationship. That feeling, the the the wish to feel that is like as deep as it gets for us, I think. I don't think you can go anywhere below that, other than maybe survival. So it's and we when you work on taking away limiting beliefs that act as a roadblock to that, that kind of demoralize you and make you feel in a deep way and sense that you're not moving forward or have that sensation, you take those out and start moving forward and Things just fall into place and make so much more sense.

Andrea McTague: So I think that's one of the key things is I wanted to find a method to use with our clients that produced reliable change consistently in the wild, right? Because even when we talk about like limiting beliefs or non-nurturing elements or whatever, whatever, I'm always saying like the clients don't really care about that. What they do care about is like not binge eating or not yelling at your kid or not getting into like a state of mess where you like feel like you're in a hamster wheel or whatever. They care about the thing that is messing with them in the wild. And I think Our orientation to delivering on that thing via the removal of limiting beliefs, which mess with people's identity and how they interact in the world. But it's that, it's that thing. Because at the beginning, and I don't know, I did a lot of talk therapy like personally, and you know, there's some like really great insights and stuff, but I found that the pacing was just so slow that I was still dealing with these things, or it just didn't impact the things. I might have had gained insight. on like why this was screwed up or why this was happening. and I could tell you the insight. I'm like, I'm doing this because of this thing and it's tied to like this childhood shit, whatever. But I wasn't changing my reactions. I wasn't changing my like actual in the wild behavior. So that's what I wanted to see is something that would do that.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a lot of therapy falls into the trap of band-aiding a wound again and again and again without healing it. just if you wanted to use that as a metaphor, it's like this is we're trying to go below below as in like deeper than your cognitions about some issue you're having. Cause those are shallow. Those can you can soothe yourself a little bit by ruminating. A lot of the dysfunctional needs people have.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Brendon Braithwaite: are just soothing the limiting belief. That actually soothing it repeatedly helps keep you from healing it and actually you removing it. So breaking that

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Hundred percent. Well, because then you get into that coping cycle, right? And I don't I always say like I don't want my clients to just be like coping with life, right? 'Cause it's that band-aid sort of thing. And in order to get the band-aid sort of pattern out, you gotta go to the root of it. And I think we developed a method that is extremely good at very quickly and very accurately getting to that root cause.

Brendon Braithwaite: Right.

Andrea McTague: Which then we align with the encoding of the limiting beliefs or whatnot, and then just create extinction in them. Because it's an exposure therapy model. Or counter conditioning, which is most commonly counter conditioning is used in cult deprogramming. Yeah.

Brendon Braithwaite: Right. okay. Yeah. I could I've never thought about it that way, but I could see the connection to what what's happening.

Andrea McTague: We're just breaking ties, right? So if somebody's got like a limiting belief tied to specific triggers, we're just removing that limiting belief. So then you don't those things in the wild don't become a trigger. So what do you see with like pacing and stuff? Like how long does it take your clients to start seeing change?

Brendon Braithwaite: it's it's variable, obviously, but it's not as variable as I may have expected before I started. It really is they start seeing change when they start getting contact with those memories that that kind of implant or reinforce the limiting beliefs. So I mean that's session five or six, that's the first like that first. bit of progress is generally a big a big step and then you know they continue walking after that. But it's it's a little bit front loaded, I'll say that. And which is great. That's what you would hope for. sure. But I that I have found that that that's my experience. You know, five sessions really helps if people are coming weekly. it actually, you know, it's a little bit of a trade off, but it also helps if that deep limiting belief is being

Andrea McTague: Yeah, a hundred percent.

Brendon Braithwaite: Poked at and activated and and

Andrea McTague: Mm, yeah, yeah. So it's like it's weird because like the more annoying it is for them in the wild, the better it works in there because we could just take that and and then w it's easy for us to identify this this one. It this is the granddaddy one that's messing with you. So let's pull that first. Cause we tend to pull them in order of like biggest impact, going to smallest impact. One session I really like with our clients is session two. So like just for listeners, our f session one is like we are gathering information. We always say like in training that it's we're like

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.

Andrea McTague: kind of in the role of the detective, but it's not just like taking a history. It's taking a history for the point of deriving these non-nurturing elements, which are essentially like annoyance things that didn't weren't optimal in early childhood. Not necessarily anyone's fault. But session two is one of my favorite sessions because that's when we begin to run some pattern theory with that information that we took from session one, right? So grab all this information and then we kind of like plug it into it's almost like a little like It's a little model, right? And so we plug this stuff into the little model and the model kind of spits out the why of why they're doing something. So I love that moment when you run a few patterns and in already in session two, you can answer like, hey, you're binge eating. This is where it's from. This is why you're doing that. This is like what's up with it. And you see that like aha thing happening. And you would have seen that really, really early with clients being able to do that piece. What was that like for you? Because that's it's pretty standout.

Brendon Braithwaite: totally. Yep. It's absolutely there are, you know, three or four different distinct moments in therapy. I I I like the way you put that because there are certain things that happen that lead to the progress or that are just validating for the client that are fun for us. Like it's really cool. It's like a teacher, you know, that part of the thing, you go investigator and then you kind of turn into a teacher for a moment and go, Well, our model has an explanation for this. Does it how does this connect to this? How does this behavior you're doing connect to this emotion that you're feeling? And you know, people really, it's not intuitive in the wild to make those kind of connections. So when they make them, they're like, wow. And they just they get this boost of confidence, and then you go, and here's how we're gonna fix it. This is what we're gonna work on. And it'll be, you know, it's not gonna be years, most likely. It's not gonna be just talking around this and just talking about it until we just figure it out. It's actually a method that cuts directly at the emotional underpinning of it.

Andrea McTague: gets rid of it. Which is really, really fun. And then like my other favorite moment in therapy and my is when you start to see that we always ask at the beginning of sessions what's good and what's bad. So usually when people come in, there's a whole bunch of bad and then a little bit of good. But then you start to flip it and you see that it's like the good part becomes like, and then this is good and then this is going well and so on and so on. And then the bad part gets smaller and smaller and smaller, which is really, really fun when people realize, you know, it's like, hey, you're living in like two point brain now. automatically without like you know going home and doing like a worksheet or whatever, whatever. It's like it just rewires your brain and you can see that rewired brain creating these automatic new reactions. Or I know you had a client as having some severe nightmares and night terrors and things like that, which is something that we see a fair amount. But when they're just like not anymore and they've been suffering with this thing for their entire lifetime, like that is it's so wild. Like it's such a fun

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: experience to have been a part of facilitating that.

Brendon Braithwaite: totally. And I it's enjoyable. Most of the clients make the connection. I occasionally have that experience of a client going, Yeah, it was a good week and I just they go, here's the ten good things, here's the one bad thing, and that is just a total reversal of, you know, two months ago, let's say. And and they don't say, So yeah, the therapy's been working and I have that urge as a therapist to go like I can explain that. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: To be like, yeah. Sometimes sometimes I will tie it to it, like, you know, when I think it was like six science, she's basically one of those like this it happens a lot, you know, where they're always in the position of saying yes when they want to say no and so on and so on. And there's just some request from her kids' school thing to do some fundraiser thing or whatever, whatever. And she was like, Yeah, you know, I don't think so. And like declined them. not because she couldn't, but because she just didn't want to. Like she was respective of her bandwidth now. And you know that that's gonna go into being less irritable and less resentful and more happiness. So being able to set those boundaries. And it's just sometimes this little tweak. And the limiting belief that we had done was we got rid of I'm irresponsible because it has the dysfunctional need of I need to be responsible for everything and everyone. And I was like, see how you were just like, nah, I don't need to actually. So sometimes I will make that tie to whichever one we've removed. if it's like a direct line like that, which is really cool to see. And she's like, Yeah.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. For sure. That's that's another fun little moment too. You get to go, You you like I might have had something to do with that, or you our work here is really working. That's a good way to frame it so I'm not being arrogant about it or something, but it's like you've done so you've made so much progress right here.

Andrea McTague: Yes. Cool. Yeah. No, I always like to say like it's like they are the ones that own and execute the win, but we can be very celebratory about our role in the facilitation of that win, right? And again, like very like personal trainer or whatever, when you see your client reach some fitness goal, when you see your client reach some life goal, it's like, yeah, look, you like you stuck to it, you did the thing. And that, like you said, kind of gets it gets a bit addictive of

Brendon Braithwaite: For sure.

Andrea McTague: they get a win here and you're like, all right, let's throw down the gauntlet, let's do another one. Let's let's figure out something else that you want tweaked or improved or whatever. And it's just gonna keep going. So that kind of brings you to one of the things that we've been discussing and kind of in our podcast prep a little bit is like if you're a client of therapy, how do you know if your therapist is actually competent?

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, I that's a qu that's open question for me. I I'm much more curious what you think about that. I have my ideas, but they're speculative. I'm curio Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Well, I have a bunch of rants about that probably, but one of the big ones is, and I think this is something that you can ask people about before to see if a therapist is going to be a good fit for you rather than investing like, you know, because we're not the cheapest thing on the planet for sure. And that goes from a time perspective as well as a financial investment, which I think is fine so long as we're delivering on results in the wild, right? because I've definitely walked out of personal therapy sessions where I'm like, I don't why we were talking about that. I don't it's not making any change. Or I'm a talker, so you I can burn up a session real fast, just like yammering about whatever's irritating me that moment, which might not have anything to do with the root cause of what I should be working on. So I would say the first thing would be like, can you ask them what the game plan is? Like, do they have a comprehensive game plan out the gate?

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Andrea McTague: Because if they can't answer that, like what is therapy with you going to look like for me? That question, like we I could see like, you know, like in session six, you've already mapped what you're doing with your clients. Now, obviously there's variability to this and so on and so on. And we are facilitating a framework. So the content changes a lot. But if they can't tell you, you know, like what does their intake look like? What does session three look like? What is the game plan or what is the like basis? Like what is the theoretical orientation at the baseline of your modality, like what are you doing with me versus just like you're a person that seems similar to me. I don't care if my therapist is a similar human to me. I care if they have a really structured plan of what they're gonna do and can explain it. Because if you can't, that's like that I'd say I'd warning bell number one, right? You're like, we'll just get to know you and we'll talk about your problems. Like, nope, no thanks. Nope. Nope.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Don't worry about that. Don't worry. That'll handle itself. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Exactly. And you're like, no, it doesn't. Because we have like a thing, I like the mantra, like planning makes perfect. Because that that goes for like, I don't know, anything going to the grocery store. Like if I go with a list, I am a much better grocery shopper than if I'm just like yammering. I came home, I did it yesterday, went to the grocery store, didn't bring a thing. I came home with like cotton candy and stuff. I don't even eat sugar. I don't know how that happened, but it was like I shouldn't have that in my pantry. It's way off course from what we're trying to do, which is getting meal prep done, right?

Brendon Braithwaite: Right. Yeah. That's the perfect metaphor too, because the you know, the dysfunction that people are trying to solve is totally driven by their emotions. And if you're if you're wide open on how you're gonna approach it, then their emotions just drive it and they'll drive it right to the same dysfunctional place. They want to ruminate, so they'll come to session and they'll ruminate with you there. And totally.

Andrea McTague: Yeah. You you help the rumination then, right? Because you like get in there and it's like you're in a venting session. Also, sometimes that makes you feel worse if you just like get into venting or complaining about a problem and it doesn't have that solution-oriented thing. Okay, so that would be one. And I would say, like, when you're interviewing therapists, that would be something that I would want to like ask about. Like, are you gonna do that? Like, I I sat down for an intake with the therapist and is Well, what do you want to talk about today? I'm like, I don't know what I should I talk about. I've told you what my baseline issue is. I don't know about it. It's like asking me, like, how do you want to operate on your knee? Well, I don't have enough information about the particular subject, which is why I'm hiring you. So that's like I think one. The other one is is the needle moving, right? So we talked about how there should be a flip between the good and bad kind of thing. Like the thing that you are there to work on or the thing that you want improved should move. Like, and it shouldn't be like five years. and we've certainly had clients that come in and they've maybe been with their therapist for eight years, 10 years, and I mean they're still dealing with the same anxiety or PTSD symptoms or whatever it is. I mean, that's a huge flag that I would like a flag before that though, but that would be a flag if your therapist is competent, you should be moving needles in your in your life, right? And if it's not happening,

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Sometimes it's not happening because the method isn't a fit, like whatever they're doing isn't a fit for the particular problem. But sometimes it goes into therapist competence. The other one is I would say, and this is a little controversial in the field, I think, is how directive is your therapist? Like are they bringing the content? Are they bringing things to you in session, whether it's explanations or like a theoretical framework?

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Way to see the world, are they directing that? Are they giving you information? Or are you just talking and venting? Because that's a that's a pretty big sign. Like if I get in front of a therapist and I can just vent and ramble for a number of sessions, like I don't that's not good. Well then I might as well call my best friend because she's a lot cheaper. you know, and knows me well, right? she's also train trained psychiatrist, so she's probably gonna give some insights, but you know what I mean, you or any of the friends, right?

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: So I'd say those are pretty big markers for if your therapist is competent or not. Can they answer your questions? Would be the last one too. If you have questions, so say you have borderline personality disorder, or maybe you're suffering from some anxiety. Can they answer questions about why that is there, how it got there, and where what they're gonna do to get rid of it? Right? And I'd say there's a bit of a thing. So, and you'll notice that in none of my answers to that.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely.

Andrea McTague: question was there is are they a personal fit for you? 'Cause

Brendon Braithwaite: Okay. Yeah. You're not into that that part of it.

Andrea McTague: No, well, I think we did some research on it a little bit, with like a lot bit, and it goes in a bun. The research is varied, but I would say you have to have enough rapport with them that it's not going to be a negative, right? So you can't have negative experiences or a high misalignment, right? But that doesn't mean that, you know, you have to like all the same things, you have to be the same gender, you have to be the same category of person. Especially if they have a really structured modality that they're using, or they've got a really structured framework, right? Even they're a Jungian analyst or whatever, but they've got a lens that those lenses add neutrality to the therapy, I think. Because if you're not working through one, then you are working through your own personal biases. And I don't want a therapist that is going to be putting their worldview onto me. I want them to make mine. more autonomous or make me live my best life, not their version of my best life.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I hear you. And that, you know, that's that speaks to a few different things. I think one element to that is that a competent therapist, one of the things about them is that they can get along with most people, if not everybody. And we you know, that's been something that I've found. So you can have a diverse client base and really actually genuinely connect and get along with all of them. and that

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Brendon Braithwaite: That would be one separator as well. but that that's a competence thing. That's like a likability. You have to get above some minimum. And maybe when you talk about elite therapists, they're people that are actually charming you too. So like they're getting they're getting you excited to come in. And now all of a sudden the therapy's working better because you're just so engaged because you're you're you're dealing with a charming person. That's always pleasurable.

Andrea McTague: Exactly. And I think that when we talk about like what our elite therapists doing that are different than the average therapists, it's a bit of that you use the word charm. I would say passion. Like if you've got people that are really truly passionate about getting their clients' outcomes, and that is one of these super cool things about our staff, is I'd say everybody on staff here, it's like relates to our core values, right? Like is that they're very passionate about their client outcomes. They're not passionate about them and how they do it, they're passionate about creating the outcome. So they like to like win, have see client wins, make client wins, and that's the orientation. And there is a level of like passion and enthusiasm there that is just really, really easy to connect with, right? Because it's then it's not necessarily a personal connection. It's like, yeah. And it I think in any field, like we're working with a tax accountant right now and he's just like really into his job and you can tell, like you go feel it on somebody who's and he's good, right?

Brendon Braithwaite: Taxes. Yeah, couldn't I couldn't understand that. I that's so the other the other way from us. I wanna talk to someone about themselves. If they pull out taxes, I'm falling asleep immediately. So

Andrea McTague: No I'm sorry. 100%. But like there's always a thing for everyone, right? Like where they've got that. But if you find a therapist and they've got that like passion, you can feel it, I think. the other thing for me, because I've gotten the opportunity to look at a lot of different therapists' work over the years, and the ability to be disciplined is crazy huge on what an elite therapist is gonna do from the average therapist. So an elite Therapist is going to be able to be really disciplined at running a treatment plan. So they can make a treatment plan and then they can execute on that treatment plan. And they're not going to get distracted by necessarily like what is the crisis of the moment all the time. Like the crisis of the moment needs to be attended to, but can it be attended to within the confines of a treatment plan that'll still kind of go to goal? I always like that the little like metaphor where it's like, okay, if I'm driving from Edmonton to Calgary, that's my intent. My gas light comes on, I'm gonna stop in red deer to get gas, but then I'm gonna get back on the QE too so I can you proceed to the route, right? You know, as the as the Google Maps would say or whatever, rather than just getting all distracted by what is the intervention of the day or what what is going on with the client. Because if you're following the client, it means that they're not getting your full professional use, basically.

Brendon Braithwaite: Absolutely. Yeah. I totally agree. I think that's one of the other strengths here. and it goes back to the question you asked at the start with what's my experience been? I really came out of school going, everything's client led. there's no confrontation unless it's so safe. The client's so well prepared. And there are ways of confronting clients that that are not so risky, they're not so likely to go south or cause them to disengage or stop therapy or whatever. but Yeah.

Andrea McTague: I think it's much more interesting to that point to know how to talk to people about difficult things and keep them comfortable. So one of our core values at SHIP is truth over comfort. So we talk about a lot of uncomfortable things, but because we're working through a theoretical framework of pattern theory, once it's framed like that, you can explain why the less than desirable item is occurring. And if you pair a hard thing with the why, you also are demonstrating a level of understanding. You're not dismissing, rejecting, or judging, but it allows you to bring up these kind of truth over comfort items and display them to your clients, which moves the needle much faster because tiptoeing around stuff is not productive for developing an outcome.

Brendon Braithwaite: Totally agree. And I my clients are begging for that. I in I learned quite quickly. I tried one time early in my practicum. I asked a client, I said, Do you want me to validate your emotions exclusively? Or if I see something dysfunctional? This was my way of experimenting and finding a way around that problem. and the client lit up like and said, like, confront me. I many of the ways I'm thinking about these things. Are keeping me stuck. Like they have that insight. That's why I'm at therapy. So now if you confront me, if you take a little bit of an expert role and you say, well justified within our framework, here is how that idea is reinforcing the dysfunctional pattern that you're suffering from. The clients are really ready to say thank you, especially if they've been to I know a lot of people in my personal life that go, I went to talk therapy therapy for two years.

Andrea McTague: Yes. Yeah. It doesn't work for me. Yeah.

Brendon Braithwaite: Therapy doesn't work. And I I'm kinda like, Yeah, some therapy doesn't work. That might be a little bit more black and white thinking. Maybe that's

Andrea McTague: Because yeah, but some therapy doesn't work, right? Like I certainly I've had like the experience of being in front of some really talented therapists and some really not so talent talented therapists. And I think it's it's that stuff. It's like the game plan y thing. Most people like that. It's really a spinach in the tooth moment kind of thing. If you've got spinach in your teeth, most people would say they would prefer to know, even if it creates a little feeling of embarrassment because maybe you're at a company dinner or something like that, and you're like, shit. whatever, but like tell me now anyway, so I can correct it. And that's the kind of key thing, right? Is if you don't use a little bit of truth over comfort, if you don't ever like if you see something, say something kind of airport style. if you don't say that, you can't take that bomb out, right? So you gotta kind of know that it's there. And I think also importantly, is not just pointing out difficult things, because that's like not fair, right? You're like, you got spinach in your teeth, but it's more like you got spinach in your teeth, here's a toothpick. Like

Brendon Braithwaite: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea McTague: We can fix it. I'll and then I'll check and I'll tell you when it's gone from your teeth. And then everybody's got the relief because now the problem isn't the problem. But I'd say that that would be a big thing. And then the other one I'd say would be a big difference in elite therapy versus not so good therapy would be are they judicious with your time? So, like in a session, I am always very obsessed with what we are doing, that there is some outcome achievement in every single session.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Okay, yeah.

Andrea McTague: well because it's really easy sometimes to get drawn into just having a chit chat for an entire session. But if you're exhibiting some level of discipline, you're going to be really judicious with your client's investment, right? Which means like their investment is the minute I'm they're sitting on my couch, then I've got to be doing things that are either provision of information of Okay, hey, you have let's identify that spinach kind of thing. You got some spinach. And then like let's figure out how you're gonna get that done. And then let's check on it. And then let's go on to the next thing, right? But that has to be occurring in every single session. It's way more treatment and less problem identification because we're working with a modality that can identify that root pretty damn quickly and consistently very, very correctly, which is fun.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yep. Yeah. And I mean, it's an easy trap for psychologists or therapists to fall into because a lot of people are getting into this field because they like talking about all this stuff. So it's kind of, you know, you have to go, maybe that's the dessert and maybe that's fun and or or particularly interesting, but you gotta eat your vegetables and that's doing the actual sometimes painful or uncomfortable, but not as not as uncomfortable as I expected.

Andrea McTague: Yes. Yes.

Brendon Braithwaite: A lot of these people are facing very difficult memories. They're going right to it and they're just they're they demonstrate bravery. They're they're like, I'm scared and I'm heading right in. And that's another big moment.

Andrea McTague: Uh-huh. Yeah, yes. That's why it's that and it's so I think a bit awe inspiring when you see a client like face something. Now they're doing it in a controlled burn way, right? Not forest fires like I would walk around in the wild and you have those difficult thoughts, but they do it and our clients and it's kinda interesting because you'd mentioned something about tough love versus soft love. so like tough love being like support and accountability, confronting is a common word used in our field, versus soft love. I think I have a different one, which is like

Brendon Braithwaite: Okay.

Andrea McTague: educated love. So like if you're like knowledge and acceptance oriented. So if you're okay, can I be educated about this? Can I know things? So did we take a proper history? Do I have I looked at it through the lens? Have I done good good enough diagnostics with my clients to get to what is the root problem that they're facing or what is the limiting belief? What is it like accurately? So knowledgeably, what what non-nurturing elements did they face that encoded that? So do I have a breadth of knowledge

Brendon Braithwaite: Okay. Right.

Andrea McTague: quickly acquired with them. And then do I have acceptance of them as a human, as an autonomous human? So I'm not putting on my you should be this way or here's my advice giving. We don't do any of that. But then I can take that acceptance, okay, look, we know that this is where this came from. This is why it's being maintained. This isn't really a you thing. This isn't coded from early. This is your early programming. It's causing this maybe unlikable behavior even. or maladaptive behavior, but that's not necessarily like your deciding consciously to be a jerk to your wife or whatever the problem is, right? So I don't have to put that judgment in there. I can just be the provide educated love where it's like, look, this is why this is happening, and then twin that with a modality that's going to create extinction in that. So it adds a little bit of neutrality to it. So we could say things like some of the things that I

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah.

Andrea McTague: Say or like extremely blunt about what is going on, or or even like this behavior of saying these things to your wife is not going to net a positive reaction in her. And then that's probably going to have something to do with why you're not getting laid or whatever it is. So very, very like blunt, but then you go back and you tie it into because this thing occurred in your early childhood, which causes the encoding of this limiting belief, which is causing this pattern.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, yeah.

Andrea McTague: That's where that behavior is in this pattern. So let's just go and remove it. Like that's a different way of saying like what's occurred.

Brendon Braithwaite: For sure. There's a there's a little bit of secret sauce in the method where a client gets to see that you've understood what's happened and then you've drawn connections that they didn't draw because you have a framework for understanding it. You explain the framework, you bring their particular case into it and show them those connections. And all of a sudden a client is sitting there going, I'm sitting in front of somebody who's trying to help me and has some skill. and knowledge that's gonna work. instead of just a parental not parental, helicopter parent, yeah, or a devouring mother or somebody that's just there to make me feel a little better today, to help soothe me just a little bit today, and then I'll make no progress and I'll I'll never

Andrea McTague: Handholding. Yeah, it's like you you're soothing me, but then you're also gonna let me run back into the same fire again. So it's like, okay, well, you might fix my burns, but now I'm running back into the fire again. You're like, no, let's let's let's put the fire out completely, which you know might not be more it's kind of a dishes in the sink sort of thing as well, right? It's like it's a lot easier to deal with them like one at a time and just consistently rather than wait till everything piles up.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah, exactly. huh.

Andrea McTague: And it does mean that you have to be consistent and regularly go and do that one dish at a time or whatever. But this is what it's kind of like. And then you're talking about the concept essentially of emotional validation versus collusion. Like at what point are you just sitting there being supportive? Like and I think that comes from a lot of alignment sort of stuff. So like my par perspective and the common perspective at Shift is that I'm very much like if you hire me to be your therapist, I am on your team, like big time.

Brendon Braithwaite: Mm.

Andrea McTague: like huge levels

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: of alignment. Like if I work for you, I work for you. But I'm I work for you in the sense that I am there not to handhold and to validate everything that you say, especially if you're saying crazy shit. 'cause or or stuff that's harmful to you, right? Like, I should I'm not gonna agree that your behavior in a relationship that is maybe destructive to that relationship that you value. I'm not gonna sit there and agree with you. But it's taking it out of the realm of having to agree

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: And back into that education. It's like, hey, this behavior that you're doing is destroying a thing that you really care about. Let's take that, let's unpack it, let's do a little analysis, shove it through the model, and then be like, why is that occurring? Do the diagnostic properly and then just get rid of it. And I think that they prefer that approach.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Yes, I totally agree. And it it kind of leverages this fact that people have different parts and there are different forces pushing in different directions in them. And when you say you're on their side, you're on the side of them that wants to grow and overcome and be brave and virtuous. You're not on the side of them that wants to be totally safe, that wants to stay comfortable permanently, and that wants to that really is in some cases the pattern is just.

Andrea McTague: Yes.

Brendon Braithwaite: something that's ruining their life, but it's a familiar devil you know type ruined life. And people are, especially when those are formed in childhood, people are really uncomfortable. I one of the things I've learned in the practicum is there are certain positive emotions people are just as uncomfortable with as negative emotions. And they have to get a little bit used to feeling, you know, when you take out a certain limit of limiting belief, some positive self-regard starts creeping in and they're uncomfortable. They're like, what the hell is this? Yeah, this is getting risky. I things are changing. I don't like that. But, you know, we're on the side of them that is brave and can confront that or embrace that.

Andrea McTague: Like this is new. And I would say that that's like the perspective that I hold about my clients is that when they're not in their walnut, aka threat brain, when that's not driving the thing. So we've removed the limiting belief, we can keep the walnut brain calm, their cognitive selves are impressive. They're like great problem solvers. They can figure the thing out. So they don't actually often, because they'll say often clients will come in, they'll say, I want strategies to deal with X or Y or Z. And I'll go, I don't like that. I would like to remove the root of Y. X or Y or Z is occurring. But if you want strategies after that, we can do that. So what we end up doing is removing the root. And then they're like, Well, you know, actually I'm just gonna Yeah, I was like, Yeah, you you like you can do the thing. Like there are strategy things that can be applied to improve life or change things or whatever, but a lot of times they don't need it because they're not working from their walnut brain. Their cognitive minds are very, very smart and very, very cognitive, or sorry, very competent. So

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: It's like if we just land you in there, let's see what happens. So I think it's a lot of positive regard for the natural unactivated state of your client as well, which is kind of a fun one because you can get they can go in the driver's seat in their life and that's where they should be.

Brendon Braithwaite: Mm-hmm. Well, that's yeah. And another kind of angle on that same thing is what I've found is that the limiting beliefs lead to a lot of inauth inauthentic behavior and thought patterns. And some of the clients get worried when you take away, let's say, a limiting belief that's causing them to be a perfectionist. Some perfectionists are really scared to stop doing that because they go, Well, now I'm just going to be a slob if you take this away.

Andrea McTague: Mm-hmm.

Brendon Braithwaite: But if you're authentically an organized, let's say clean person, that part is just gonna get bigger. You don't need negative reinforcement of yourself constantly to keep yourself doing like it's who you are.

Andrea McTague: To do that. Yeah, you could do it. It could be choice space. Choice space versus that compulsive threat avoidance thing. And one feels a lot better. And then it also allows you to kind of pick where do I want to put that perfectionist level input and where do I not so that I can actually stay in balance because if I'm trying to be a perfectionist across the board compulsively all the time in every single area, including ones I don't particularly care about, but maybe I'm worried about somebody else's judgment or society's perspective or whatever. If you go into that choice-based reality, it allows them to be a lot more reasonable and a lot more respectful of their bandwidth, right? So my client with the bake sale thing with the or the fundraiser thing with this kid's sports Well, she can like, yeah, this is not one that I want to do, but maybe she wants to be like super perfectionistic on something else that she does with her children or the way she interacts with them or whatever. So it allows you to kind of prioritize that because the walnut doesn't like if something's coming from that compulsive threat brain, it's not going to be good at prioritizing or delaying gratification or like thinking in anything outside of a short term model. Right. So we gotta get them into the mind that does that. And I think it's very, very cool. So it's been very fun to have you around for your internship. And I'm happy that you're sticking around to do the MHT stuff with us. I would think we'll if you want to get a hold of Brendon, he is on the website as the mental health therapist and he is located physically in Edmonton, but he does a whole bunch of virtual stuff as well. So if you exist somewhere outside of the Edmonton rain and you want to see Brendon,

Brendon Braithwaite: I appreciate

Andrea McTague: you are still able to do that. And Brendon, yeah, I hope you continue to like keep hitting out of the park 'cause some of your client outcomes have been just wild. And to see that in a practicum is madness. so I can only imagine that it's gonna get like wilder and crazier and we're happy to have you on for the ride.

Brendon Braithwaite: Yeah. Yeah, I'm having a great time. I really appreciate you guys having me on the podcast and hiring me after my practicum. And let's keep the good times rolling. It's been really fun so far. So

Andrea McTague: Yeah. It'll be good. Well, thank you very much. And like I said, we can pop us on we can pop onto our socials to find our little clips and things like that. And there's also our pattern library. So if you want to see a little bit more depth of what Brennan and I were touching on, with whether it's non nurturing elements, limiting beliefs, or different client concerns, that's on our shift grit resources. So if you pop onto shift grit dot com and check that out. And if there's something that you'd like to see us talk about on the podcast, drop us a little note on the website. There's the form. And thank you to all that were listening and thank you, Brendon, for joining us today.

Brendon Braithwaite: Thanks for listening. Thanks, Andrea. Bye.

Andrea McTague: Three.