Andrea McTague: Hi, welcome to this episode of The Shift Show, where we are delving into the world of veterans, first responders, and we're going to touch on some of the unique challenges these populations face. But if you're not one of these individuals, still stick around, because we're going to have some great information coming at you about trauma, the importance of social connection, and the archetype of the hero in today's discussion. So I'm Andrea McTague, I'm founder of ShiftGrit, and it's unique psychology based therapy program. And in our practice, we've got a focus on trauma treatment. And I've worked with a lot of severe trauma, be it in acute presentations, PTSD, borderline, or just in the day to day and how it feeds into our maladaptive thoughts, emotions and behaviors. And today I am joined by one of our talented brain benders and provisionally registered psychologist, Amy Gale. Amy, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

Amy Gale: I'm super excited to be here.

Andrea McTague: It's going to be fun. We're going to have a good little chat. Amy's got some really unique things in her lived experience, which make her especially adept at treatment of veterans and our hero populations. Amy, do you want to tell us a little bit about what you were doing before you came into the world of psychology that kind of makes you particularly talented in this area?

Amy Gale: Amy Gale, I was a stay-at-home mom, but previously I was in the U.S. Navy and I served for about 15 years down in the U.S.

Andrea McTague: And what were you up to? First of all, how did you get into the Navy? How old were you when you got into the Navy?

Amy Gale: I was 19 and I just wasn't finding my niche in the real world. And so I decided, hey, why not? Let's go and join the Navy. And so I served from, I think, February of 99 to 2014.

Andrea McTague: So tell me about that. Tell me about what was the best thing about your Navy experience. What did you love the most about it?

Amy Gale: I got a free trip around the world. I think it's the people. The people make it, right? You're meeting people from all over the country and you're learning about them, how to connect with them, find out from their life experiences. And that gives you a better perspective of where people come from in this world. And people in the military, they become family because you're away from your family a lot. So you depend upon them for that support when you need that support.

Andrea McTague: Well, and that's something we're going to get into a little bit is talking about that camaraderie and that connection that occurs when you're on these missions. You said it took you all around the world. Where did you get to visit some of the places?

Amy Gale: I've been to Japan, Thailand, Dubai, the Gulf, Italy, Spain, and back into Virginia, Florida. I started my journey in the Navy and Chicago. And that's where boot camp is. And so then from boot camp, I went to Florida, Florida to Virginia. And then September 11th happened. And then we went, we brought our aircraft carrier around the USS Nimitz. We brought it around the Horn of South America to our new home port in San Diego.

Andrea McTague: So what were you doing in the Navy? Because obviously there's a lot of different roles. What were you up to? What were some of the big ones?

Amy Gale: At the beginning, I was a jet mechanic. I worked eye level in the, in the jet shop on the boat. And then I transitioned to a squadron, which has the aircraft that support the carriers. So I went to an airline and I was there for about 13 years. And I worked on the F-18. Damn.

Andrea McTague: I didn't know that. That's pretty crazy. So you've got some really interesting experiences, meeting a lot of cool people, seeing a lot of cool places. But of course, with that, there's probably a bunch of challenges as well. And what do you think was kind of a couple of the biggest struggles or challenges, the negative parts about your Navy experience? I think the mental health, right?

Amy Gale: If you have mental health and you're struggling with mental health, you keep it to yourself. Because a lot of stigma that goes behind it is that it's going to mark your service record where, okay, you can't deploy, you can't do your job because you're struggling with mental health issues.

Andrea McTague: And I know we see that in other kind of professions as well. And then especially in kind of what we'll bundle is like our hero professions, right? Because I see that in our firefighter clients and our police, other first responders as well. And we even see that in therapists, right? Like I have to be on and perfect somehow magically from a mental health standpoint, which obviously I didn't pass that test because I'm crazy as shit. But aren't we all? We'll get into kind of talking about some of that, a little bit of, I guess we'll touch on three major areas. Because we've got a little bit of the PTSD, vicarious trauma, the effects of trauma, and just like the mental health bundle. And we'll chat a little bit of that because you also had a different role later on in your Navy experience, working kind of directly. I think this is what transitioned you into our field now. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Amy Gale: I was, it was called Savvy back in my day. It was a sexual assault victim advocate. And I mean, I still did my job as a jet mechanic, but I held this secondary role as a sexual assault victim advocate. And so when people were being sexually assaulted, they would come and talk to us. But again, a lot of females would never come unless something traumatic happened. That was a huge deal. There was a lot of underage drinking in the barracks that was going on. And girls would wake up and even boys would wake up and be like, oh gosh, what happened? And they would keep it quiet for a while until, you know, the name calling would get called. And then they would finally come in and, you know, come to us.

Andrea McTague: Need some support. And I think that you kind of touched on it when you said it's like a family and that obviously has like a nice thing. But we also know that families have their own kind of rules and sense of belonging. And sometimes those codes aren't great ones. No. It's a little bit of that stuff. And then after, what was it like for you? Because you transitioned out and you're a psychologist now. So what was that like for you? Well, you had a stay-at-home mom bent in the middle of that, right?

Amy Gale: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: But transitioning out, what did you find in your experience was kind of challenging or a bit of a struggle that maybe you didn't expect?

Amy Gale: Well, when you go into the military, you go in one way and you come out a completely, totally different person from the experiences that you deal with every day. It was very hard, I think, for myself to find a sense of belonging because you go from having the strict routine where you have to be at a place at a specific time, you're doing a specific thing, and it's just that constant routine. And when you come out, you lose that sense of belonging because you don't have anywhere to be. You don't have somebody to report to. And so it's a loss. You feel that loss of being belonging into the world. And another thing I really had trouble with was finding friends, right? I still have my girlfriends. I have two of them that I still talk to. One I have talked to every day for the last, gosh, since I got out, almost 13 years since I've moved to Canada. Every single day I've talked to her. She's my ride-or-die chick. And then I have another girl that I talk to about once a week. And you're very lucky to have those. Were they both in the military as well? They actually were. They're two of my, like, really best friends. And there was a time that both her husband and my husband had just deployed together. And they were on the same ship. And she had just had a baby. And I think that's where we bonded really well. And since that moment, she's my ride-or-die.

Andrea McTague: And I think you said something earlier as well about that sense of belonging. And when you were talking about that, like, trying to figure out, you know, having come from this really structured experience where you're like, hey, be here at this time. This is what you're doing. Your mission's kind of given to you. It reminded me of two things. One, I was just on a podcast with Baldwin. Salah, who does our sports psychology, and he kind of said that same thing. You've got your training regimen, you've got your team, the mission is very clear. And then all of a sudden, when you transition out, that's not how the real world is. And you have to kind of decide what you're doing, where you're going. And there's this like listlessness that comes up. And the other population that it reminded me of is I've worked in the past with some prison prepping and reintegration kind of stuff and coming out of incarceration, same sort of thing. It's like, here's where you go. Here's your limited choices. And then all of a sudden, they're in the world where it's like, you can choose anything, which sounds beautiful. But I like to say it's kind of like the Michelin star menu versus the Chinese food menu, where there's just so many decisions that it becomes overwhelming. And I think a lot of people just freeze. And they're like, I don't know what to pick. So we're going to talk a little bit about that in kind of our third part of the podcast, where we're talking about the things that occur with transitioning out and back into civilian life. And there's so many complexities, like you said, all of the moving around, you know, that that moves your social circle. Maybe it's traveling with you and it's reestablishing that, which kind of goes into the second piece that we'll talk about, which is a little bit of that isolation and avoidance kind of stuff. Right. And we know that that bleeds into trauma responses and makes it a little bit harder to manage them. But just in general, also like that shared experience of like, how do I get that belonging? Because we know that social connectivity is so wildly important for humans. Right. Of course, just like all of the crazy trauma stuff.

Amy Gale: So I like it. Some nice, nice little things to chew on today for sure.

Andrea McTague: And I do think that they have application to other populations as well, as well as just the people wanting to support people coming out of this experience. Right. And I would imagine that the duration has a little bit of things to do with it and the reason you're transitioning out as well.

Amy Gale: Right, right, right.

Andrea McTague: So why was it that you kind of decided to leave the military?

Amy Gale: Well, I hired tenured out the government switch from Democratic to or from Republican to Democratic. And we all know how the Republicans are very heavy on the military and the Democrats are let's just cut our budgets. But so it was my time just to get out and go. And I wanted to start a family with my husband. And so we just decided it was time to go. And we just didn't want our kids to have to go through because I do have an older daughter that watched me go through the military and struggle with mom not being home and me not being that mom I needed to be for her because I was being that sailor defending my country during a time of war, right?

Andrea McTague: So really pulled in two different directions, right? Like wanting to be here and wanting to not be away from the kids and so on and so on. Right, yeah.

Amy Gale: Talk to me a little bit about, let's talk a little bit about trauma and so on.

Andrea McTague: And I think that like there's a lot of conversation, I think, in the public sphere now about PTSD and so on and so on. I think we used to call it back in the day it was like basket cases. That was like a World War II sort of scenario. Do you know where that term comes from? No, I don't. Because the real severe trauma and amputations and stuff like that would literally have them coming home kind of carried in a basket. And so that's where that term comes from. Now, of course, it's kind of akin to being like a crazy person, which I think goes back into that feeding into the stigma stuff. Yeah. And I think these conversations about PTSD are really prevalent. But you don't have to have a clinical diagnosis of PTSD. And I think often in our practice, we talk about it as kind of a spectrum, right? Like trauma, and it can be an acute trauma that sometimes we move past, something disturbing happens, and then we are able to integrate it. And then it can go all the way into full clinical. And I think the big distinguishing factor with PTSD is the duration, like the duration of the trauma effects, right? And that can go on for a lifetime, particularly if there's no treatment or no awareness. So I'm glad the awareness part is coming to fruition. But I think it kind of stops there. Like what happens when you get this, like, okay, so I know I've got trauma, I know I have some post-traumatic stress, et cetera, et cetera. Like what does that actually look like? Because I'm sure everybody that's listening can go Google the DSM criteria and whatnot, but it looks a lot different. So what do you see in your clients or in your friends that have had some trauma from working in these types of jobs for so long?

Amy Gale: Everybody's experience is different, right? And everybody sees it in their own light. Some people, like, I'll just go off a quick story. We were outside on the airfield, and there was an aircraft, and they were practicing for an air show that they were going to. And the plane didn't do what the pilot wanted it to do. And it went nose first into the fields, right? And it exploded. Both pilots died on impact. And the first thing that our maintenance control did was more worried about the aircraft logs than the people that witnessed it and saw two people die instantly. And so I view it, and I know everybody else views it, it's a traumatic experience, right? And watching two people die instantly, and it goes to the military, it goes to the first responders, the cops, everyone in those situations, it's how you view it through your mind and how it's going to process and sit in your mind. And is it going to be active or is it going to be inactive at that moment?

Andrea McTague: Well, and this is where we talk a lot about, and we've delved into a lot of research on how come some soldiers go to war, they see horrific, crazy things, and they come back and they're able to reintegrate and it's fine. And then others have long lasting effects of trauma that really, really make relationships difficult, sleep difficult, all of these effects. And one of the things that we kind of couch it in is the activation of certain limiting beliefs. So whatever the pre-established lens through which you see yourself and the world is, and whether that's adaptive or maladaptive, seems to have a big effect on the impact and the duration of that impact of trauma, I think.

Amy Gale: Right, right. And I think also when you're being exposed to the trauma from being in the military, the first responders, you know, the police, how you talk about it and how your buddies react to it also helps get through that situation, right? And it goes to also, I think, the way that you grew up, right? When feelings are being exposed in a family and you're able to talk about experiences and talk through to get the resolution to that problem or to, you know, look more in depth on it and it's easier to talk about it.

Andrea McTague: No, no. But that's the thing, right? Like, exactly. And I think that some people have the setup where it is already established that it is easier. They have those environments. They've got those two besties, whatever it is, where they can go to that, or they've got a workplace that handles it well. Unlike the scenario that you just described where, and I think we're seeing that more and more a recognition of the importance of debriefing difficult or traumatic events and that need for that, that space, whether it's like at the fire hall after a bad call day or whatnot. One of my really, really, really, really close people is the first responder. And I know some days it's just like wanting to talk to somebody who you can actually detail it to. And I think this gets into a little bit of the isolation thing as well is it's sometimes, and this is something that I've spoken to with some of my first responder clients and first responder bestie often is it's not the type of conversation you can necessarily have with just anyone. You can't, you know, when your wifey asks you, how was your day to day? You can't be like, well, I went to a suicide call that was completed and this was the effect and the girl looked like our daughter. Like you can't say those things.

Amy Gale: No, no, you can't.

Andrea McTague: And I think you brought it up when we were talking a little bit before the podcast started about the feeling of being burdensome.

Amy Gale: Yep.

Andrea McTague: And they did kind of a lot of that.

Amy Gale: It is. It is. You don't want to come home and bring what you're dealing with at work, especially to somebody that doesn't understand your terms. Right. And like, if I say the head people, that's, that's the bathroom to me in my, in my brain. Right. Not the washroom, not the bathroom. It's the head. Right. So if my spouse or my partner isn't understanding the terms that I'm using and I'm having to break it down further for them to understand, then why am I going to burden them with what went on at work? Right. I could just say.

Andrea McTague: Or you think it sounds scary and you don't want them to have that image of whatever the horrific thing is. Like after your, after witnessing the jet crash, what did you see people doing that like worked and what was kind of not so great aside from the organization's response on that one?

Amy Gale: I think everybody just looked at each other and was like, I hope my name were on the log books and just went on their day. Nobody reacted the way I think they needed to react. Right. There was no trauma response team that came in to talk about what had happened. And you just like, look at each other, you know, you give them that, give each other the look like I'm here if you need to talk or, you know, I got you, but it's really, it's nothing. Nobody's again, going back to that mental illness stigma that's attached. do it. Everybody's scared, right? I'm not going to go and say, Hey, I witnessed the crash. My name was on the aircraft and now I need help. You don't do that. You brush it away. You put it into your deep, dark closet and you keep walking.

Andrea McTague: Well, and this is why I think when we are seeing the identification of certain limiting beliefs in these types of populations, right? We see really commonly, I am weak coming up, right? Because it's like, well, I shouldn't be feeling this. I should just be over it. I should be da, da, da, da, da. All of these shoulds on, on, um, things that go with that kind of, the hero never falls themselves. The hero doesn't have to ask for help. The hero just like sucks it up, goes and does the thing. And then the other one that I see really commonly is I'm irresponsible. Yeah. And that's the dysfunctional need for I'm irresponsible that we work with is I need to be responsible for everything and everyone. So there's often this, like, I'll help you or how did you deal with that? Or are you okay? Or checking on the situation or do we have the logbooks or all of that kind of stuff. And it, it doesn't necessarily stop for that moment of introspection to be like, Hey, am I okay? Like, how did that go? How do I feel about it? And giving that moment to actually have some exposure to the emotions or to the event or to the encapsulated meaning. And we know that that avoidance piece is implicated in maladaptive trauma responses.

Amy Gale: Right. Right. No, it's definitely, when you look at like the trauma response now compared to the trauma response, like you said, the basket case, when everybody was coming back, for instance, like my dad did four tours in Vietnam and he got blown up twice. I laugh because it's not funny. I lit, I read, I read the paper of his, his medal that he got. And I'm like, holy crap, you're still alive. Right. But again, those guys that came back from Vietnam, they're all basket cases, just like that. Right. And then going back to like the PTSD thing, it really didn't become a thing until this last war that we just went through. Right. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Fairly recently considering. And I think everybody knew that things happened, but it was very quiet. There was a lot of shame around it, like the families and, you know, like he doesn't sleep. He's not able to go to work. He can't focus and kind of just keeping that passion almost this like, and I think with the interest of trying to protect somebody, right. So that nobody knows that, you know, they're being crazy or nobody knows that he's not okay. But in that protection, you actually create like an isolation bubble around that person. I think often, rather than being like, Hey, you know, so-and-so's not doing well and let's reach out and let's resource and let's connect. And that's where I think we see some of the comorbid issues that happen with PTSD and other traumas. And we talked a lot about, you know, the comorbidity of substance abuse. And I'm sure you saw a bit of that going on.

Amy Gale: Well, because in the US military, and I think with even with the Canadian armed forces, we have a zero tolerance policy. The minute that you are caught, and you piss positive on a piss test, you're done, you're out, you're being transitioned out. Alcohol is starting to become a big one too. I think when I was still in, it was the three strike rule, and you were gone. But people use alcohol as a coping because it's legal. It's not illegal, right? Yeah. And available like everywhere, right?

Andrea McTague: It is. And I think one thing I was seeing is because when you are inside and you're part of the system, there's often these automatic accountability pieces or control things. And where I see it in my client population coming into a problem is once they're transitioned back, and there is no stopgap. So then that's when it starts to come up. And I think that often then that that's what gets the focus. And it's not interpreted as it actually is, which we see it as an opt out, which is trying to reduce this pressure cooker, all of these negative feelings, and our little threat brain is like, well, what's something that can help us feel good in this moment for a little bit at least. And that can be a drugs thing. It can be an alcohol thing. But we also see a whole host of other the irritability, anger outbursts, and just that avoidance. Like I'm not going to talk to anybody about this. I'm just going to shut down and isolate and some social anxiety and things like that. So a ton of ton of opt outs happening with that. And often I'd say that that's why my first responders come to us. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. The opt out starts to be destructive, usually to a family or to a relationship or something like that. And then when we delve into it a little bit more, it's, it's even deeper than that. And this is an interesting thing that I noticed kind of early on working with first responders is I noticed in therapy land, they would still hold back from saying any of the things like the nature of the trauma often.

Amy Gale: Yes, they hold it back.

Andrea McTague: Have you seen that?

Amy Gale: I have. I have.

Andrea McTague: And you want to tell me a little bit about why you think that that's kind of a common thing? I think it's shameful.

Amy Gale: I think it comes out of being kind of more of I'm responsible going back to the limiting belief of I'm responsible for everyone and everything, right? Because they sat there, they witnessed it, especially say in the military, if a buddy stepped on the IED and they died, or you are on a call and say it was a traumatic car accident, right? You feel responsible for that person dying. You feel responsible of, I should have been there. I should have, I should have been able to do more. So you're re-victimizing yourself every time you talk about it. And so that brings in that shutdown, right? And to the point to where of like, I can't talk about it because those memories keep flashing into my head.

Andrea McTague: Well, and I think that's one of the interesting things as well is it's not just avoidance. We always say avoidance creates phobic behavior. Avoidance maintains trauma responses. And we know that the opposite of the avoidance stuff is exposure, but it's not just avoidance to people or places or things. It can also be avoidance to self, right? To the thoughts about it, the feelings about it. And then that kind of just keeps those in this structure where it gets worse. Like it gets terrifying to even think about it. And I also think that's something that from the therapist lens, people should be very careful about is if you are having people just talk about their trauma, that doesn't necessarily move it around. And it can also have a kickback effect of making it worse because, you know, you bring up all this stuff and then you're like, okay, I'll see you next week. Which is why we use an exposure-based therapy instead of a cognitively oriented therapy to treat a little bit of the trauma stuff. But I think that there's some interesting complexities in the trauma as well. And one of the pieces I do with first responder clients is talk about vicarious trauma. Yes. Often there's that narrative of like, well, it didn't happen to me. I wasn't in the jet. Like it didn't happen to me. It wasn't my spouse. And I almost like diminishing the effects of watching that. Right. Do you see that kind of in your population sometimes?

Amy Gale: I do. I do. Well, it didn't, like you said, it didn't happen to me. It happened to them. So it's on them. They have to deal with it. Right. They just remove themselves because they don't want to be sucked in and have to help somebody else. It's easier for me to turn the blind eye and keep walking until that moment it comes back and it happens to you. Yeah. It happens within your circle.

Andrea McTague: And I think it's also an interesting one where I talk about how this sort of being in jobs where you're seeing an unnatural amount of fear and scary experiences because it's, it's a buildup. Right. And when you see this, I was working with, I remember an emergency room nurse and she goes, well, I'm just a nurse. Like it's not a thing. And I was like, yeah, but you're seeing an unnaturally large amount of people in these life or death scenarios and the blood and the guts and like all of this really, really graphic stuff on a daily basis. So the accumulation of that, or maybe it's one of my police clients that, you know, on a daily basis, they're in situations where it's going to push the cortisol level, like way up. It's going to put your adrenaline way up. And that cycle is happening more and more and more. And you can, A, you get some like nice adrenal fatigue, but it's also that vicarious trauma comes from just an accumulation of a bunch of paper cuts of this nature. And then that's when we get like the hypervigilance and the full trauma responses kind of coming out. Right, right, right.

Amy Gale: And it's, it's scary, right? It's really scary at the end of the day when you have to live through that, the vicariously, right? Because in that moment you act so strong and be like, oh, it didn't happen to me. It'll happen to them. But then you take that step back and you actually have time to process it. How are we processing it?

Andrea McTague: Yeah. Or, or at all. Right. And you had talked about just the exposure to even feeling that ownership of it. Like I should have done this. I should have done that. And so it just adds another layer of stress onto it. And I think that also when you are sitting there and there's the vicarious trauma and it's being top loaded and top loaded and top loaded, you're having all your hormone systems be dysregulated as well. Right. And so then we have these like interesting side effects of that. Like if you're running really high cortisol all the time, and then you're really burnt out, you're also going to have effects on the production of your other hormones. So for women, your progesterone, which is a stress alleviating hormone. And for men, often it's like going to interact negatively with your testosterone, which also has mood regulating capacities, right? And things that get into like libido and all kinds of stuff. So the spillover stuff that doesn't seem related, but often is related. And I think then it just gets overwhelming. And I think the common outcome of that is there's something wrong with me. Yeah. Yeah. Like I'm just fucked up. Like this is like not, not good or whatnot. Right. When we talk about trauma, we see a lot of sleep disturbance stuff. Like I'd say that in our intake, that's one of the things we're looking for when we ask people about how do they sleep. What do you see as like common sleep disturbances that go with post-traumatic stress or maladaptive trauma responses?

Amy Gale: I'm seeing that they're not, they're not sleeping. They're not going into their REM sleep. Like they're waking up every two to three hours. It's taking them very long time to go to sleep. Right. And it's that sitting in that silence of trying to, I call it sleep with your thoughts, right? You're laying there and your thoughts are just replaying over and over and over again. And by the time you actually go to sleep, you're not in the right state of mind to fall asleep in. And so you're going to wake up continuously or that situation or that trauma that you just witnessed maybe five years ago keeps playing in your head. Every time you close your eyes, every time you close your eyes, you see your body step on the IED or you see that in that vivid kind of form.

Andrea McTague: And I think that that's one of the things that's an indicator is like the feeling of like reliving it, whether it's in flashbacks or nightmares, or like you said, when you go to sleep or you've got a moment to yourself and you're like back there instead of like in your life, which is, I think that one of the things always suggested for trauma is mindfulness, which I like, but you know, my orientation is to just get rid of the trauma and reintegrate it. So we'll talk a little bit in the future about how we do that. And it's pretty magical.

Amy Gale: But what are some of the other things that you see in terms of how the trauma affects relationships?

Andrea McTague: Isolation.

Amy Gale: They're isolating themselves big time. They don't want to talk or they become hyper fixated on people. They have to be at their side 24 seven because they have the fear of losing the spouse, the mom, the dad, the brother, the best buddy, right? They become hyper fixated and with in their group of having to have more and more and more because they're afraid to be alone.

Andrea McTague: Kind of almost getting that like guard dog kind of vibe, which is the like expression of the hyper vigilance. So that'll mess with you, especially if you're not used to having that spouse or whoever around. And then all of a sudden they're back and they're like Velcro creature. Like, what are you doing? I got to drop the kids off at school. Like, why are you right here? And all of that.

Amy Gale: And, and regardless, you know, like you go on deployment and you're gone and all you have to do is worry about yourself for the six to nine months. Right. And other people deploying over a year, but in those moments, being, having to reintegrate yourself back into the home life is also very difficult. Right. You're putting yourself back into a situation where they just lived without you for the last six to nine months. And now you feel like the oddball. So it does put stress on your relationship. It does put stress on how am I going to act? Do I need to act different? Do I need to act like myself? Are they still going to remember me?

Andrea McTague: Right. Because especially the family system creates its own little routines and it's got its own thing. And then you're trying to like fit back into that. And I see that with the first responders as well, even at the end of the day, because the worlds are so different. Yeah. Like your day is full of this like chaos. I don't know what's going to happen. And I think that that's another thing is like one is very predictable. You're like, okay, the kids are going to hockey practice. We're having this for dinner. And then the other one is like any, literally anything could happen in that day. And I think that we don't often talk about the, just being on the feeling of being on. And I remember you were telling me a story about the day of nine 11 and where you were and you're just like hanging out. I think you guys were getting ready to move.

Amy Gale: I was just coming off of like my, we on the carriers, we should, we, um, would do 24 hour duty. Right. And I was getting ready to, I was hanging out in the bird thing, getting ready to go home. And I'll never, regardless, I don't consider it a traumatic event, but I do. I will never forget the sounds of the bells ringing on the boat because I had never heard them ring like that. We'd done drills. We did this to prepare ourselves, but I'd never heard those bells go off.

Andrea McTague: Well, and I think that points to that, um, hypervigilance that's there where it's like something could happen. It's a feeling of like, okay, we've done the drills and, and so on and something, something could happen. And then it trips into something is happening. And then where do you go with that?

Amy Gale: Right. And it's, it's a weird feeling. I don't know how to like explain it, but it's just a weird feeling. Right.

Andrea McTague: Well, and I think when you talked about kind of that wanting to be near your loved ones, cause you fear that something's going to happen. The limiting belief that we often tie that to and do is I'm going to be abandoned. Yes. Because of course to the little like walnut pre-evolutionary caveman threat brain that it, death is that right. So worrying about them being taken from you or something happening to them, et cetera. But we get into it by identifying that one. And in general with the trauma responses or anything that people are coming in with where they're like, this doesn't make sense to me. Right. Like this is like chaotic. You're like, it should be fine. Like nothing happened. Everything is good. So the cognitive mind is saying all of this narrative, which really ends up making the person feel crazier. Right. Cause you're like, what is wrong with me? But if we split the mind into two pieces and we go, okay, you're cognitive, you're like developed, evolved brain is there, but you've got this other threat brain and the threat brain really only understands like, are you safe? Are you not safe? How do I keep you safe? Right. Yes. And so when we switch into that brain, which we're doing often, if we're in these kind of scary jobs, right? Where you're like, okay, I'm in my normal brain, I'm in my threat brain. And so because that switch keeps happening over and over and over more and more and more, it kind of just regulates the binning of a threat versus a non-threat. Yes. And we kind of bin things as a threat or non-threat based on like what the limiting belief is. So if I feel like I'm going to be abandoned is triggered or could be triggered, then every time, you know, wifey walks out the door to go to the grocery store, I'm going to be like, and then I have to check or I have to make sure I have to call her on the way home. And are you on the way back? And so it turns into these like little behaviors or little thoughts or emotions, not some, sometimes not little, but, and then they become very pervasive. The way I get at it with the first responder population or any of my clients, because like most people have a sprinkling of some version of a little bit of trauma in somewhere is we'll kill that limiting belief. Like we just eradicate that and we use like an imaginal exposure technique to do that. And then that way it's not binning it as a threat anymore. And we find that quite effective for the treatment of trauma. What else do you think with the activation, what are some things that you use to kind of get that walnut brain, that threat brain a little bit more regulated while you're working with somebody dealing with this stuff?

Amy Gale: Well, we talk about, I like to talk about like where and why with them as well of, you know, when we're going through it, where, especially in the intake, when we're, we're doing the trauma, right? I really like to get details, not too many details, but them to give me what they're thinking and what they're going through in those moments. And I like to have them talk about it a little bit so that it becomes not so uncomfortable. But comfortable and where we're sitting at the moment to get them, you know, so that they're a little bit more regulated about talking about really one way, because I noticed sometimes when people are dealing with a really high grade trauma or an accumulation, right, where it's like, I don't know, it's just like a whole bunch of stuff.

Andrea McTague: I'll often focus it on tell me about the impact, like what is the feeling or what is what does it make you want to do or that sort of thing. And I feel like sometimes that's the approachable way to get into it. Versus a recounting necessarily of like the specific details, you kind of know what the thing is. But I think and both of us tend to focus on, I think, the impact of it. And a lot of it in what was the impact on identity? Like, what does it make you feel like about yourself? Right? What does it make you feel about the world now? And I think it's like tweaking that is where we see integration of trauma or not, because I think we otherwise get into some interesting dissociation stuff as well. So I always say that the dissociation is one of the like super skills. It's one of the mutant abilities you get when you've either grown up in trauma or had exposure to a lot of high grade trauma, because the brain essentially just gets this little off switch often where it's like, I'm just not going to feel that or deal with that dealing with it today.

Amy Gale: Yeah.

Andrea McTague: And the cognitive mind is like off switch. The problem with dissociation, though, of course, is that it still accumulates in the nervous system. Yes. Right? So we can't dissociate the nervous system response, because that one's kind of around to keep us alive. So when we get into the dissociation, do you find that that when you've got clients like this, that they're off or friends that they're often a little bit like distanced from their emotional experience? I think we're.

Amy Gale: taught that though a lot, right? Even with some of my first responder clients and my friends and even, you know, like being in the military. We, I think we're taught, it's the mind game to be taught away from your feelings and emotions. You don't tie stuff to around feelings and emotions. You distance yourself from them because when you let your feelings and your emotions get in, then it plays within your mind and doesn't allow you to think straight when you need to be on your toes, when you need to be at your best, best. Right.

Andrea McTague: And it's interesting because I had this conversation with two of my clients and we were talking about, and Bestie, and we were talking a lot about how these jobs ask for something very unnatural, right? So they ask for you to be able to do that when the situation is kind of insane or very scary. And you're just like, oh yeah, just override that and make sure you, that you follow the standard operating procedure. And one of the things, and this was coming off doing the trauma reprocessing stuff for a few, a cohort of first responders. And what I noticed is often once we've reprocessed the trauma and got those limiting beliefs out and sorted out so that they're not binning things as trauma, they're not waking up the threat brain more often than it needs to be. What I found was often they would exit that field. So they would quit being a cop, they quit being a medic, they quit being a firefighter, they'd be like, I want out of the military. And I think that that regulation just became self-protective. And it doesn't happen with everybody, but it certainly is a thing which sometimes necessitates a transition, I think.

Amy Gale: Well, it does. I think too, like I was, as you were saying that I was thinking, I was like, we're always taught to be kind to people, right? And like, say you go into the field as being a police officer, right? And, or that you're taught not to hurt, you're taught to protect, but you're hurting in some aspects.

Andrea McTague: And I see like really commonly the I'm at risk limiting belief activated, especially in police officer populations, because it's literally in their motto, right? Like to serve and protect. And the dysfunctional need for I'm at risk is I need to protect myself. And the thing about limiting beliefs is they can generalize to other people and other things. So it activates that need to protect. And when that need to protect is showing up from a non-nurturing element that's caused a limiting belief, then when we remove it, it gets rejigged a little bit. And that urgency to protect at all costs to one's personal capacity kind of goes away or gets mitigated a little bit, I think. And I think that when we do the debriefing of that, it's like, well, look, you put your own health, your own safety, your family's welfare, all of this stuff kind of to the back burner to meet this need to constantly protect and constantly protect. And that can be like an interesting realization later. It can.

Amy Gale: It can.

Andrea McTague: What was it like for you when you were like, okay, I, you know, your daughter and you saw that there was like a cost of being in this lifestyle. What was that like for you when you decided that you wanted to do it differently? Like what was the impetus there?

Amy Gale: I didn't want to lose with like, I didn't want to miss out anymore on what I'd missed out on my daughter's life. Like my oldest, she suffered. People don't realize what military children go through. Right.

Andrea McTague: We do. Because one of the things that we clock as a non-nurturing element is like multiple moves. Right.

Amy Gale: We, we were constantly, we constantly, I mean, thank gosh, the Navy doesn't move like the army or the Marines or, you know, the air force move constantly a lot more than the Navy does. So we didn't have a lot of moves, but me being a single mom, she did go back and forth between my house and my parents' house. So there, we didn't establish that. Okay. This may be your home temporarily going back to Nana and Papa's house. Right.

Andrea McTague: Well, and not to mention, I think that, you know, especially as they get a little bit older, they realize that, so there's the parental absence thing, which is hard for kids, of course. And then there's also that piece of, they get worried. Like if you're in a challenging or scary situation, you know, it's like turning on the news and seeing like, Oh, this is happening. And where's my, and that they begin to do that. We call that non-nurturing element is often like modeling. Right. Right. So I, or even like, I grew up in a home where my dad grew up in a environment where there's like a lot of trauma just from a geopolitical kind of scenario. Right. And I think then there's that heightened hypervigilance in the parent that is then modeled for the kids. So often we'll have the encoding of certain limiting beliefs or a higher level of hypervigilance or trauma switching from seeing that in the parent and absorbing kind of that energy. Cause they're always cuing from you. Right. Right. Right. And they're like, am I safe? You seem anxious. Like maybe, maybe some stuff's going on here. Like what are we going to do about it? So creating the calm environment is hard when you're not in the calm environment all the time.

Amy Gale: Right. And it's a lost identity as well. Going to it, your identity is kind of lost and taken from you in those moments as well, especially flip-flopping. Right. You finally get settled to get your identity of like who you are. I have some really good friends. Well, guess what? Three years later, you're up and you're gone to your next duty station or per se for here for like, say the RCMP or, you know, the first responders. Oh, I'm going to go here. You know, there's a big class over here. So we're going to go and we're going to up and move and uproot. Right.

Andrea McTague: And I think in general, just that challenge with connection, right? Because if you're coming home with an awful day in your head where you've just seen some really messed up stuff, it's very hard to just switch to connecting, especially with a child, because you really do want to protect them from exposure to any of that stuff, like any of the energy of that stuff or the thoughts or whatnot. So often then we'll see people choosing to isolate or pull back from their families, their kids, their loved ones versus, and it kind of goes into that cycle again. Right. And then feeling like they're losing those pieces of things that are very important to them. And I think this is why it ends up feeling like a big yarn ball of stuff because of how the trauma kind of like splays across or the experience splays across in all of these realms, whether it's like the sleep stuff or whether it's the romantic connection stuff or the establishment of a community and being in one place. And so when we've got all of this going, a lot of people do get to the point where you got where you're like, okay, I think it's time to put it aside and move into a different part of life, which of course is a strange thing whenever like humans don't love change in general. It's not my favorite. And the threat brain definitely doesn't like change and it doesn't like change of an unknown sort. So when we talk about transitioning out of that type of experience, especially with like, you're still carrying all of these things that we've been talking about, right? So you've got this big bundle of like trauma and disturbance and maybe some like difficulties with the relationships and connectivity. And then you're like, okay, now I'm going to do this other adventure. And we talked about kind of three areas of it, which is like the reestablishing purpose, right? And then reestablishing that social connection and community and all of that. And then the integration of past experiences and trauma into and learning like, okay, I've got these skills that are called this and this and this in the military, but how do I like take it and turn it into like a job in this civilian world? What does life mean now? So in terms of reestablishing purpose, what do you think are kind of the belief structures that most often get in the way of that?

Amy Gale: I think as you come out, I think it's finding the purpose, like what do you really want to do? Right? Because we do go through a transition. I know the US military does it. They have a transition assistance program that helps you and guides you, right? To try to find that purpose.

Andrea McTague: But they've got something similar in Canada, challenging still, but like to expose yourself to things. Right.

Amy Gale: But it's still challenging. I'm not going to lie. Like you're trying to find a purpose in need of what you need to do in the real world, as we call it. It's, it's, it's difficult. I don't, I don't know how to explain it. It's just the awkwardness or the emptiness of trying to find it.

Andrea McTague: Like what was the thread that you were like, okay, maybe I can follow this one. So I want to move from this to this. I want to go back into the real world. What's the thread that you kind of started to pull on to find out where you are now?

Amy Gale: The threat is I'm not going to be good enough to meet a civilian standards, right? I'm not going to be, but also trying to work and establish that connection with your peers in the outside world. That was a struggle, right? You're trying to, again, it goes back to that structured routine coming in and I'm coming in at eight. My lunch is at noon. I'm leaving at, at four o'clock, but everybody else is coming and going and doing stuff. And so many parts are moving that you're not used to it.

Andrea McTague: So do you think that there's skills and things from coming from that? Like, cause there was one in your interview, cause I did your job interview. I remember. And there's something that you said, and I was like, Oh, I like that. Are there skills and things that can be looked at in a different way that can transition and transfer to other populations really, really well?

Amy Gale: I think so. I think when we compare the civilian role to the military role organization, right? Organization is a big thing, right? You have to be organized 24 seven in the military. And that's a very good feature to have because, again, it goes to that structure routine. You're taught how to fold your clothes. You're taught that you need a 45-year corners of your bed every day, right? It's still there. But the organization and the routine of being on time, I think, creates purpose coming into it because you know that Joe Schmucatelli over here isn't going to be in a structure as you are. So you do hold that purpose over them coming in that you know that I'm going to be there.

Andrea McTague: They may not be there, right? So this is kind of one of the ways you can look at it, I guess, is taking the different traits of taking the inventory rather than being like, okay, I don't have any civilian job experience or I don't have any experience from I was a first responder and I only know how to do this. And you're like, well, actually, let's break it down into the pieces of how did you do that stuff? So, like, by being really disciplined, by being able to follow standard operating procedures, by being calm in a really heightened situation. And so kind of getting them to inventory, like, all of these things and then taking it and going, okay, where in civilian populations does that job exist? Does that stuff exist, right? And it might be even, it was a cute, funny one. I was working with one of my clients and he's like, I don't know what to do. And he was kind of taking some time off and I was like, well, what are you good at? Like, what were you good at? And he was good at organizing teams. He'd set up kind of, I don't know the military words, but anyway, he'd set up different trainings and then got everybody to do the thing or whatever. So I was like, okay, so you can get a game plan going on. So where we started with the integration was getting him to coach his high school kids' soccer team. Yeah. Cause he's like, oh, I know how, I know how to get people lined up and like focused on a thing and incremental till we get to this goal. And so you're like, okay, there's one piece. And then other pieces where it's like, okay, well, what other jobs need somebody to be calm under pressure and to follow, you know, like this order of operations or create the order of operations. And there was so much stuff. So when we took the lens off, like there's nothing on my resume about military and changed it into, I have these traits, I have these skills and broke it down. Then it actually became really easy to find things where that was going to be a fit. So it didn't feel anymore. And this is why we were focusing on it. It didn't feel anymore. Like it was a loss, like, oh, I've wasted this many years doing this and now it's all for naught. And I have to start at the bottom because I think that that's a mentality that can get really depressing really, really quickly. And it stops that integration of like, no, it's just a different manifestation of the things, but we have to go backwards to kind of see it. And I think when we were establishing that, then you can get that self-efficacy of like, okay, this isn't as big of a split, a departure from reality, because you're still the consistent. You still have all this stuff from before and you're just taking that and riding it into a different direction. Yeah.

Amy Gale: And I do know that like when we go to like, say our schools for our jobs, right, we have a breakdown and it breaks it down to what's equivalent in the civilian world, right? What gives us college credits too? Because some of the classes that we go, we can transition them into college classes and use them as a college degree.

Andrea McTague: Which is a nice thing that I think sometimes the military has put a little bit more thought into than say some of the first responders that are transitioning out because it's just too much. Like they are over it now. They don't want to do it anymore. And you're like, okay, but I got to switch this into a different job without maybe that transitioning assistance. So definitely a nice thing in military land.

Amy Gale: It is, it is. And it's nice because to like, say for my job that I was doing in the military, being a jet mechanic, I could have turned my time in and turned it in and gone to be an AMP, got my AMP license to work on aviation engines in the civilian world. Right. But that's not something I chose to do. Yeah. Right. I wanted to wear nice clothes and high heels and help people. Get the girly stuff going on. Get my nails done.

Andrea McTague: Well, and it was interesting because I think one of my, I was talking to a first responder and we were talking about, okay, loves his job, really wants to do it, doesn't want the negative aspect of the accumulated trauma. So what we were setting up to do was a plan to reduce that. So how do we create, because we do need, like we need our heroes in society, right? Like we need people to work military to, you know, do that call for a cardiac arrest at three in the morning or whatnot. But how do we do it without damaging them and without hurting their own personal lives and taking that cost? So that's what we were scripting. And what we basically set out to do is like identify every single limiting belief that was going to be activated by the vicarious trauma or upcoming stuff. So we pulled things like I'm powerless, I'm at risk. We pulled, I'm irresponsible, I need to be responsible for everything. We pulled, this is an interesting one, I'm worthless, which the dysfunctional need for that one is I need to provide value. And we wanted it to be like want to provide value versus need to, because then we would get the individual considering the cost to self. And that that was the other piece is like creating a little bit more room in that pressure cooker. So that personal capacity was respected, because that's the thing that's going to keep people doing this in a healthy way versus doing it in an unhealthy way, which is if you are doing something where it's going to have a mega load of stress, right, which is just a stressful kind of career path. And if you've got something where you anticipate a higher level of stress, then what we needed to do is create the balance on the other side, so that there was more social connection, there was more fun, there's more nervous system regulation and distress tolerance stuff that was created. So we created all of that preemptively. So the next time something crazy happened at work, it was already set up and there was no like need to go and do the thing we put in the debriefing structures, etc. So when we remove the limiting beliefs on mass, we got calm in the walnut brain. So it wasn't going to bin stuff as threats that weren't threats, right? And then we had all of these like balancing pieces, preemptively done so that it could be done adaptively. And I think a lot of that just comes from the acknowledgement of the stressor. You're like, okay, if you're going to do this, you got to do a different thing to like balance it. That's maybe a little bit larger than somebody in a more, I don't know, normal job.

Amy Gale: Right? No, it does. It does. Like, but again, it goes back to those self-worth and how we're value. I can't even, I lost the word. What kind of putting yourself first? Right, right. Because you're so long, you're putting everybody else first. And now you have to step up and put yourself first. But then you see those challenges that are staring right back at you in the mirror. And then you're up shit. You know, like, what am I going to do?

Andrea McTague: Well, I think that that's what am I going to do? How am I going to do that? Which is what makes it seem so overwhelming. Because I'd say outside of the stigma stuff, that would be the thing that I think stops people from accessing help is they're just like, well, what, I'm just going to go and like talk to somebody about it. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not, not all therapy. I think not all therapy is like that. No, definitely not. Because you can definitely regulate that threat brain. And when that's regulated, you're going to have really, really nice automatic results, which, which we see. It takes a little bit, though.

Amy Gale: Right. Kind of like a bit of a workout, the resistance sometimes. Well, yeah. And I mean, it's not an overnight thing.

Andrea McTague: And I think that's the thing I often compare it to just like an exercise program, like it's super cute. If we want to lose 20 pounds and go three times, like that's not the deal. But that consistent attendance with it with a really, really structured game plan where you're like, okay, these are the baseline problems and starting from the core, which is the impact on identity, generally, right, right, right, right. And regulating that. And then that allows the incorporation of it. And I think understanding the neurological responses around trauma is helpful as well.

Amy Gale: Yeah, because a lot of people don't, they don't want to take the time to actually read, do research, look deeper in to find out.

Andrea McTague: But it can be hard to also do that when you're in an activated state, right? Right. So it's this like horrible little like catch 22 of when you most need that information, you're often not in the mind state to obtain it, delve through it. And plus, like, I think one of the things with the internet age is there is so much information out there's so much that you're like, I don't even know where to start. What's bullshit? What's not like, how do I how do I like unthread all this? And it's quite funny, because once we I think once you're in front of somebody that does this on the regular, like yourself or myself or whatnot, they've got the game plan for you. So you just sit down and we just like, this is how the thing works. And this is what we're going to do. But I think just starting somewhere can also like reduce that feeling of intimidation.

Amy Gale: But no, definitely, definitely. And having the structure like we have and putting it out on the table for them, it allows them to see it, how things are going to flow. Even if there's a hiccup, we come in and have a hiccup that day. We still have the structure to be able to flow.

Andrea McTague: So apparently y'all like you like structure a lot. I saw it here.

Amy Gale: We do. We do. We like structure.

Andrea McTague: If you were so if you were doing it again, and you're say somebody who's exiting, maybe not for a purely choice based reason, maybe the trauma, like there's a trauma diagnosis, or maybe it's like kind of just cannibalizing your life kind of thing. And you're like, okay, I need to be out of this high stress role. What are maybe three things that you would point people towards to get started with or to do? to, to transition this nicely and smoothly and address that trauma rather than avoid it or kind of push it away for it to come out in like a controlled burn versus wildfire. Right.

Amy Gale: I think I would, number one, I would, in my eyes, I would make it mandatory. And I know it is kind of mandatory when we exit, but I think making it mandatory to when you're exiting and transitioning out of the military that you have to see somebody right away for like that six months period.

Andrea McTague: And what kind of, and I think like, okay, so we'll definitely see somebody to, and what would you say would be your objective for them with that? So to, because there's a whole bunch of different places that can go.

Amy Gale: Right. But I think having that structure going to see it as like a psychologist or even a therapist, it allows you to have a clear head going into that civilian world. I think it's necessary, right? Because you're holding everything in and don't know how to unload. And when you don't, when you unload on the wrong people, they take it differently. They take it bad. And then again, you're going into the isolation. So having somebody that's non-biased can help you. Maybe you've even been there sitting in your shoes before to help you through it.

Andrea McTague: I think it's even just kind of, I think having something where you're like, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to book this. And what that does is it orients you back to, this is the time where you were thinking about that. And what I kind of, you know, I like my analogies and stuff like that is very much like hiring a consultant, right? So if I get stuck, if we get stuck on something in the business or whatnot, like one of the fastest ways to solve that problem is go find somebody who knows about that and then hire them to help you do the thing, right? So unpack it, figure out what the yarn ball is, get a game plan in order. And especially if you're looking at somebody and you're talking to somebody who's seen these problems before, because most of the things faced by humanity are not unique, right? Like other people have seen them, done them, game plan them, et cetera. Actually, that was like the advice from one of my best mentors. He's like, stop making stuff up on your own and lone wolfing everything. He's like, other people have thought this. And like, probably there's entire industries that have solved this problem that you're facing before. So, you know, like be humble and go find that. And I was like, I am humbled and I will go find that. But that can help like set out that plan. And that, so you're talking a little bit about intentionality, right? Yes. Yes. Intentionality and then a space to do those things and unpack it first. Right.

Amy Gale: Right. And I think number two, make sure that you have a good support system. Right. And I think number three, take time for yourself. Right. Enjoy that transition out. Right. Make a plan, but enjoy those, those moments where you're not waking up and having to have that structure and routine 24 seven. Enjoy that time.

Andrea McTague: And one of the, when you say enjoy that time, one of the things I talk to clients about often is they're like, they'll say, and this is a really common one. And I know you've heard this one in yours as well, where it's like, I don't know. I don't even know what I like. I don't know what I like. I don't know what to have fun with. And I was like, okay, well, if we don't know what we like, that's fine. Just go try some stuff. Try it as an experiment. Be like, I don't know. Do I want to rock climb? Do I like walking in the woods? Do I like going out for coffee with this guy? No, he's kind of boring. Yawn. Like switch it up and make it okay. Kind of. Right.

Amy Gale: To be comfortable with what you're going into. Right. Like, it's very important. Like I said, take the time for yourself. Try new things. Try new food. Talk to new people. Right. Associate yourself with the outside world before you are boots on the ground and running. Yeah.

Andrea McTague: Just like the time to like plan, being intentional. Take some space to do some introspection, et cetera. And I'd say adding a little bit of structure to that often helps as well. Right. Because one of the things that's like kryptonite is when we're like, okay, I'm traumatized. I'm stressed. I can't sleep. I'm just going to give myself a whole day to think about that for several weeks. And that is not the vibe. So building in like really intentional self-care where it's like, I'm going to get up. I'm going to do the hygiene thing. So like bringing in aspects of that structure, but filling it with different stuff than before.

Amy Gale: Right. Right.

Andrea McTague: And I think that's generally where we would start with it and then layer on that twofold piece of like, let's get at the identity impact and make sure that it's like nice and clean. And so when, when we're doing that and you've kind of got that set up, anything kind of lastly on your second point of creating the social connections where you would look towards to kind of help do that or things that get in the way of doing that, that could be moved out? Yeah.

Amy Gale: And then you're going to get in the way of doing that. Yeah. Allow you to have the support, right. And start reconnecting with old friends. And this is a great time, right?

Andrea McTague: I think that that's a great one is like, and I know often the threat brain is like, I don't want to, it's not like the thing. There's a bit of anticipatory anxiety, but if you can get yourself over that hump and just be like, you know what? I'm going to put myself in front of people. And a common thing that my clients will say to me is like, well, I don't like people. No one's going to be fit. I'm like, yeah. Okay. Here's the thing. You might be looking for a specific type of person, which is good. Like we want that screening criteria. God knows my friends are all like a variety of weirdos that I've collected over the years and it fits my weirdo self quite nicely, but it might mean that your exposure needs to be to like, okay, let's start with this group or let's start with other people who have a common thread of lived experience or a shared hobby or whatever. And just getting in front of people, which will lend the structure and the social connectivity because you only need to find a couple of little weirdos. Like you've got your two besties that are your ride or dies. And I think it doesn't take much to have that strong sense of connection once you put a mind to achieving that.

Amy Gale: Right. Right. And it's important though, that those social connections will take you further than you think they'll take you.

Andrea McTague: 100%. And they're just fun. And one thing I would say, I often will talk about like the superpowers found in trauma or challenging experiences. And one of them is humor. And I find with whether it's my first responder populations, my highly traumatized or my military people, um, funniest fucking people on the planet. They are.

Amy Gale: Yeah. And it's kind of that.

Andrea McTague: Yeah. Well, I will put you in this category. I like, I know we like a, a dirty meme or two back and forth. And I think that that's one of the things is humor can be used also as a thing to dispel a lot of stress. So that humor, that laughter that comes with the social connectivity. So it doesn't always have to be these like gravity things. It doesn't always have to be like, let's go to this group and talk about this thing. It can be just like getting around some buddies to shoot the shit with and that kind of can identify with it. And that's part of what makes life enjoyable as well. Right. You know, it does. It does. Brings a certain lightness to it as well, which is why I think like traumatized individuals and, and humor tend to go together. Right. Often. So I like that. So like three really nice starting places for where we can go with trauma. And I would say on the closing side of things is it's not something that I talk about with clients, whether it's a full blown PTSD, um, diagnosis or anything in between. I don't talk about trauma as being only a weakness or an injury that is like permanent and you have to cope with. I do not like that. I don't like cope with, I like thrive. And I think that traumatic instances or experiences can be integrated fully into your identity in a way that's going to be like a superpower. Often it brings a lot of humor. Like I said, it brings a lot of wiseness and understanding of the world. It almost raises the consciousness, conscious level of ourselves. Once we kind of transition from that healing, right? So we go at it head on. And I think taking that approach is like, I'm going to get this bull by the horns. I'm going to go into it. I'm going to game it. I'm going to plan it. I'm going to, um, achieve it. And it's a weird thing to think about like achieving healing. Right. But I think for goal oriented people, that's a way that makes it easier for us to identify with. No, it does. It does. Right. And having a clear outcome. Right. And you got, you have to, you got to take it.

Amy Gale: I tell people you got to take it with a grain of salt and use it as your superpower.

Andrea McTague: And it can definitely be a superpower. There's definitely, and we won't get into it today, but there's a lot of research on some kind of superpowers that come out of being exposed to trauma. But I would say in general, like the humor and the wiseness and things like that, and just collecting these different skillsets and launching them onto the world in a different way. I like it. Well, Amy, thank you so much for that chat and sharing a bit about your experience. If you are somebody that is dealing with trauma of all sorts, or you want to support one of your lovely first responders or military individuals, or you are one of them and you're kind of sitting there yarn balling it by yourself. Don't white knuckle it alone. We're pretty damn good at it around here. So you can get a hold of Amy at shiftgrit.com. She's got a whole bunch of stuff online there. We've got additional information about that, or you can hit us up on any of our socials. Again, I'm Andrea McTague and we're ShiftGrit, and we will talk to you in the future. Have a great one. And thanks for joining us, Amy. Bye.